SHARTQ'S

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gerund
gerund's picture
SHARTQ'S

I'll start with a good one!

Bottom brackets come in different sizes .. right? How do I know what bottom bracket will fit my bike and what brand I should get? I want something cheap and low-end because it's going on a pos grocery bike.

Wed, 10/29/2008 - 23:52
y
y's picture

I know I encouraged you to start this thread, but I now realize that it'll probably consist mainly of links to Sheldon Brown. Here's one: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html

Wed, 10/29/2008 - 23:55
gerund
gerund's picture

:facepalm:

Wait, wait, no. Trying to read that page is like trying to read French - I see words that are familiar to me but I do not have to background (crankset) to understand the context.

Oh, double wait. BB size is dependent only on crankset? I could just shove any old thing in there and then try to find the appropriate cranket? Wh-what.

Wed, 10/29/2008 - 23:57
k_phombear
k_phombear's picture
Wed, 10/29/2008 - 23:59
gerund
gerund's picture

Sheldon does not always answer things in ways I understand! Grr.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 00:02
y
y's picture

Scroll down towards the bottom of the link I posted. Your choices are English, Italian, French and Swiss. If it's for that khs you posted, you're gonna need an English bb. All you need to figure out is the right spindle length for the cranks you're gonna use.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 00:07
phil
phil's picture

I know you don't really want another website, but www.parktool.com/repair has everything too. It's good sometimes for another perspective.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 00:17
Petr5
Petr5's picture

Just get a book
http://www.amazon.com/Bicycling-Complet ... pd_sim_b_1

This one explains everything pretty layman.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
"Your bike sucks and we have a team of biased experts to pseudo-scientifically test that hypothesis, all in blue shirts."

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 00:19
gerund
gerund's picture

Okay those are all good suggestions. Sometimes a girl just likes to interact with humans, even internet-humans.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 00:27
gerund
gerund's picture

I haven't look much at cranksets - I honestly don't care what I use as long as I don't die and it's cheap. If anyone has a low end set of 170 or 165 hanging around .. you know what to do.
The brand is KHS, model is Winner. Judging by this sticker set I'm going to guess it's from the late 80's. Serial number is 70463337. According to their serial number guide it was made in April of the 7th year of some recent decade. So. 1987?

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 00:51
soundandmotion
soundandmotion's picture

thanks for asking that because i was going to ask about that at some point. my bike is rapidly deteriorating and my birthday is coming up and i have a nishiki frame that i got for free, so i am probably going to use this thread to ask all the dumb purchase questions i have, of which there will be several because i don't know what i'm doing at all.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 01:07
gerund
gerund's picture

We will learn together.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 01:18
SUPERVEEPS
SUPERVEEPS's picture

Easiest thing to do is to get the Sugino RD crankset and matching BB, or the IRO crankset and matching BB.

If you really want to save money, first get a JIS square taper road double or triple off Ebay. Shimano 105 or 600 would be best, but you can make a Sugino VP or Sakae work fine. Just make sure the drive side crank is not swaged (crimped permanently onto the large chainring). It should have 5 arms, 5 chainring bolts, and 2-3 chainrings. Make sure you get them all together because bolts and rings cost $$ new. You shouldn't expect to pay more than $35 total for a 170mm set. 165mm sets go for much higher, even if they're crap, because some people think they'll die without them.

THEN once you have your crankset, go to your local bike co-op and explain you need a regular 24x1.37 bottom bracket (2 cups, 1/4" bearings, lockring, spindle). They should have a whole bunch of used ones. Also explain that you need to figure out which spindle will give you the right chainline with your cranks. For example, most Sakae cranks (chainring on inside) will give you a ~42mm chainline when matched with a 3NN spindle. You may have to try a few spindles before you find one that gives you the right chainline. You can also flip a spindle around since one side is usually longer than the other. You can put a spacer between the fixed cup and the BB shell. As long as you get the spacing with 2-3mm of 42mm you'll be fine. This is assuming you'll be using Formula or Joytech hubs (some other hubs have 45mm chainlines).

If you don't have a local bike co-op, maybe an LBS that rebuilds old bikes can help you. Just don't let them rip you off. Or other tarcksters might be able to help. I've got an extra set of cups, you can get the bearings at a hardware store, then it's just lockring and a spindle.

But yeah, first get a crankset.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 02:12
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Nashbar has a $30 crankset for hybrids and whatnot if you want new parts. You could probably find something at one of the various bike parts recycle places or a coop or something.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 02:16
sail away!

frankstoneline suggested this
http://keirinculture.com/store//catalog ... cts_id=402

iros website says the bb has a 68mm shell

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 02:53
gerund
gerund's picture

SuperVillain wrote:
snip!

This is exactly the kind of interaction and advice I was looking for - that makes a lot of sense, thank you! We do have a co-op, the Bike Kitchen. And I'm a member! How bout that.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 02:58
zombie

Don't buy a BB 'til you know what cranks you'll be using.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 03:04
TimArchyLime
TimArchyLime's picture

If you use an older quality crank, I've had good luck with 110mm BB spindles. I switched between the crap that came stock on a fuji track to a Gipiemme to a Sugino Super Mighty. They were all converted road doubles and they all gave a chainline within a mm of perfect.

I wouldn't go with a loose ball BB unless you have to. It is nice to learn how to overhaul them and stuff, but for day to day riding, having a reliable cartridge bearing BB is nice. The cheap shimano square taper BB is about $25 to $30.

Snarky Varking wrote:
Tarckbike- Where mile 11 means you're on a long ride.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 03:49
blackholelectron
blackholelectron's picture

Yeah. Bottom brackets are pretty complicated; you have to consider shell diameter, threading, spindle type, and spindle length. The first two things basically determine whether or not the blasted thing will screw into your frame properly, while the third determines if the cranks will fit on the spindle and the last (on a singlespeed drivetrain) determines the chainline the cranks have.

The advice of "know what cranks you are using before selecting a BB" is perfect, as you have to make sure the thing will interface your frame and cranks properly as that is its function.

If you're looking at an older JIS taper Shimano 105 or 600 crankset (like the one I recently bought hells yeah!) which is something I recommend you'll get a pretty perfect chainline to a standard track hub with a 107mm BB spindle. They are on the internet, I actually just got a set of 4 shimano sealed bearing bottom brackets for like 20 bucks on eBay. It's easy to find hella deals if you know what you're looking for, so get cranks first.

Sorry if this post was too Bikeanese.

Quote:
if you're happily shuffling between rural corn dog purchases at 14mph, how are your needs not being met?

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 16:57
frankstoneline
frankstoneline's picture

blackholelectron wrote:
Yeah. Bottom brackets are pretty complicated; you have to consider shell diameter, threading, spindle type, and spindle length. The first two things basically determine whether or not the blasted thing will screw into your frame properly, while the third determines if the cranks will fit on the spindle and the last (on a singlespeed drivetrain) determines the chainline the cranks have.

The advice of "know what cranks you are using before selecting a BB" is perfect, as you have to make sure the thing will interface your frame and cranks properly as that is its function.

If you're looking at an older JIS taper Shimano 105 or 600 crankset (like the one I recently bought hells yeah!) which is something I recommend you'll get a pretty perfect chainline to a standard track hub with a 107mm BB spindle. They are on the internet, I actually just got a set of 4 shimano sealed bearing bottom brackets for like 20 bucks on eBay. It's easy to find hella deals if you know what you're looking for, so get cranks first.

Sorry if this post was too Bikeanese.

To say bottom brackets are complicated is pretty silly. The first two bits of information should have been taken care of when you selected a frame (BB shell size and threads) and its really not worth it to dick with stuff that isnt standard if you are trying to find a BB for it. Spindle length is really the only concern, because presumably you are using it for square taper cranks, rather than splined stuff. So really, you just find the cranks you want, and then look up the manufacturer specs on them. If you are using a road double, you have some play, as you've got both chainring positions to use, so you can add a mm or 2 or subtract them and still have a setup that will offer you a proper line. As it's a beater you really only need to get within 2 or 3 mm of the 42mm chainline, and even if it wasnt chainline isnt nearly as important as people make it out to be. Also, theres really no reason to not get the cheapest bb you can find, generally older loose ball shimano setups from a bike co-op.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 19:35
Petr5
Petr5's picture

No way, Frank. For 10 bucks and never having to fuck with it on a beater bike sounds like a steal to me.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
"Your bike sucks and we have a team of biased experts to pseudo-scientifically test that hypothesis, all in blue shirts."

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 19:45
frankstoneline
frankstoneline's picture

Petr5 wrote:
No way, Frank. For 10 bucks and never having to fuck with it on a beater bike sounds like a steal to me.

Plus shipping?
And how often do you have to fuck with it, once a year if it gets a lot of use?
I mean, I agree with the simplicity, but you're probably looking at 20 bucks by the time shipping hits that bitch.
most shops worth their salt should be able to dig out an older loose ball bottom bracket for you for 10 bones.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:03
SUPERVEEPS
SUPERVEEPS's picture

Cartridges are great, but only if you're absolutely sure of the exact length of spindle you need. It's not the kind of thing you can swap out and flip around easily. Plus those Shimano carts have a plastic NDS cup, and they do tend to crack occasionally, even if installed properly.

One thing that's worked for me is matching Shimano 105 cranks with IRO 110mm bottom bracket cartridges for a 43mm chainline with the chainring on the inside. IRO carts are $25, roll nicely, and are metal on both sides. If you want to get it perfect, add some 1mm chainring spacers and you've got a 42mm chainline. Not all 105 cranks will work with this method, though. Model #s FC 1056 and FC 1057 will work, but not FC 1050. Unfortunately those are the only three I have experience with.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:12
gerund
gerund's picture

Why is chainline so important, it seems sort of arbitrary to me if you can fudge it by 3mm and be fine

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:18
Petr5
Petr5's picture

Consider it. Your parts will have more friction if not aligned. They'll wear faster, be noisier, and be more likely to throw your chain.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
"Your bike sucks and we have a team of biased experts to pseudo-scientifically test that hypothesis, all in blue shirts."

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:23
frankstoneline
frankstoneline's picture

gerund wrote:
Why is chainline so important, it seems sort of arbitrary to me if you can fudge it by 3mm and be fine

It really isnt, if you move too far off of 42mm you can increase ring and cog wear, and if you REALLY go too far you can cause binding, but keep in mind that we are talking millimeters of shift, so the difference between using the proper spindle length and one that is say 1 or 2mm's too big or too small is really miniscule, even 3 is acceptable. Theoretically if you are adding lateral force to the chain you are increasing friction in your teeth and reducing efficiency, but like I said chain play will account for 2-3mm's easily without many adverse effects which you would see manifested in anything.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:24
gerund
gerund's picture

That makes sense now that you have explained it to me, thank you for answering my Dumb Questions.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:27
frankstoneline
frankstoneline's picture

Not dumb really. I think had no one ever sat down and explained chainline and bottom brackets to me I would be clueless the first time I tried to figure that shit out.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:30
Bulldog

I love this thread.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:44
SUPERVEEPS
SUPERVEEPS's picture

This really is the most complicated part of properly setting up a fixed gear conversion. It wasn't until my third build that I really figured out what I was doing.

One useful way of correcting a chainline that's slightly off is to run a 1/8" chain on a 3/32" drivetrain. Say your chainring is at 45mm away from center and your rear hub is the common 42mm away from center. The 1/8" chain will sit to the left on the chainring and to the right on the cog, running straight the whole time.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:48
J-lo

I hate to pull a thread jack but what spindle should I get for sugino messenger cranks or the 75 cranks 144bcd. Hub will be a profile and frame is a soma rush. Sorry if that sounds weird but I'm super confused and this is my first build up.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 20:48
frankstoneline
frankstoneline's picture

J-lo wrote:
I hate to pull a thread jack but what spindle should I get for sugino messenger cranks or the 75 cranks 144bcd. Hub will be a profile and frame is a soma rush. Sorry if that sounds weird but I'm super confused and this is my first build up.

Well messengers and 75's use different spindle lengths, and profile hubs give a 44mm chainline, so the solution would be to find the suggested spindle length (I think 109 for 75's and 103 for RD's which are the messengers) and add 4mm (2mm on either side to compensate for the wider hub) and then buy a bottom bracket with a spindle that length. So if me rememberings of the specs for those cranks are right, 75's would need a 113mm ish BB and messengers would need a 107mm BB.
check my numbers, though they should be close if not correct

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 21:06
J-lo

Thanks tons I'll double check em

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 21:07
frankstoneline
frankstoneline's picture

SuperVillain wrote:
This really is the most complicated part of properly setting up a fixed gear conversion. It wasn't until my third build that I really figured out what I was doing.

One useful way of correcting a chainline that's slightly off is to run a 1/8" chain on a 3/32" drivetrain. Say your chainring is at 45mm away from center and your rear hub is the common 42mm away from center. The 1/8" chain will sit to the left on the chainring and to the right on the cog, running straight the whole time.

A word of warning on running off sized chains.
They will be loud, thus negating that aspect of benefit, and the prevention of wear is negligible, as the chain has a tendency to move laterally on the teeth to adjust for the off chainline (the difference isnt really ever right to keep it straight like it would be theoretically) and this adds wear, so you're basically back where you started with an off chainline, except (arguably) more likely to toss a chain.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 21:08
zombie

Your chainline doesn't need to be perfectly, or really all that, straight. Even for 1/8th components.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 22:18
SUPERVEEPS
SUPERVEEPS's picture

frankstoneline wrote:
SuperVillain wrote:
This really is the most complicated part of properly setting up a fixed gear conversion. It wasn't until my third build that I really figured out what I was doing.

One useful way of correcting a chainline that's slightly off is to run a 1/8" chain on a 3/32" drivetrain. Say your chainring is at 45mm away from center and your rear hub is the common 42mm away from center. The 1/8" chain will sit to the left on the chainring and to the right on the cog, running straight the whole time.

A word of warning on running off sized chains.
They will be loud, thus negating that aspect of benefit, and the prevention of wear is negligible, as the chain has a tendency to move laterally on the teeth to adjust for the off chainline (the difference isnt really ever right to keep it straight like it would be theoretically) and this adds wear, so you're basically back where you started with an off chainline, except (arguably) more likely to toss a chain.

I ran one setup like this for awhile. It was indeed loud (KMC + Dura-Ace generally is), but the chain ran straight and I didn't notice any abnormal wear. Had I ridden that bike in the winter I might be able to give a better account of how that type of setup performs in terms of wear. For about a year's worth of fair weather riding it worked great, though. I also keep my chains really clean and well oiled, so that may skew my results further.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 23:40
shitmittens

Since we are talking about BBs and chainlines, maybe you guys can tell me why I am getting a lot of noise from my drivetrain---------I have Sugino Messengers on a Sugino BB (the cheapest one, dunno the name of it) with a Miche Primato hub. I have a thick chain but the cog and chainring are thinner (I forget if 3/8 or 1 1/8 is thicker, I am in the metric system).

So why am I getting a lot of noise? I also have another wheelset with Forumula hubs and they are much much quieter....the chainring is thicker on that one.

Thanks.

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 23:45
SUPERVEEPS
SUPERVEEPS's picture

In my experience it's the combination of cog and chain that plays the biggest factor for noise. Just the way they're shaped and how they fit together. This is assuming your chainline is decent and your chain isn't super tight.

So if I understand right, you've got a 1/8" chain which is noisy on the 3/32" Miche cog, and quiet on the 1/8" cog that's on your Formula hub?

Thu, 10/30/2008 - 23:58
shitmittens

Yeah, the chain is a track chain, the chainring is a road ring and I bought the cog to match the chainring in thickness. The chain is thick and the Formula cog is thick too, so I guess that is why there is no noise. It is pretty much silent. If they weren't tubulars, I would run them all the time, I just like how quiet things are.

Fri, 10/31/2008 - 00:11
frankstoneline
frankstoneline's picture

Your issue is the mismatched chain with drivetrain parts. If you swap your chain for a 3/32" chain to match your parts it should quiet down. Also some people have issues with those RD's though the mismatched parts should be the source of your issue.

Fri, 10/31/2008 - 02:15
Oh No

correct me if im wrong but 1/8 works on 3/32 but not vice versa

or maybe thats backwards

Fri, 10/31/2008 - 11:19
johnnyraja
johnnyraja's picture

Yes since 1/8 is wider

miguelaron wrote:
obese and unamerican
is your name Fat Albert Queda by any chance?

euclid wrote:
If you never open packages or slice fruit, is life really worth living?

Fri, 10/31/2008 - 11:26
curiousincident
curiousincident's picture

yep. even if using a 3/32 road chainring, there isn't much sense in buying a 3/32 cog as well if you plan on running a 1/8 inch chain. all my conversions have been 3/32 rings with 1/8 cogs and chains, mostly because 1/8 inch chains can be had for cheaper around here than 3/32.

other than that, the difference between running a full 1/8 drivetrain and a 3/32 one is negligible, so you can just work with what you have to match your cog and chain to reduce noise. there is nothing better than riding at night hearing nothing but wind rushing in your ears and that buttery tire hum.

Fri, 10/31/2008 - 11:55
room203
room203's picture

are there any silent bmx freewheels? i think i heard shimano makes a pretty stealth one.

rollin

Fri, 10/31/2008 - 12:05
ArtBlur
ArtBlur's picture

room203 wrote:
are there any silent bmx freewheels? i think i heard shimano makes a pretty stealth one.

yup.. that's the quietest i've heard (errr.... or not heard).

Fri, 10/31/2008 - 12:12
FarAwayBoy

I have the shimano one. It basically makes zero noise.

Fri, 10/31/2008 - 17:59
J-lo

frankstoneline wrote:
J-lo wrote:
I hate to pull a thread jack but what spindle should I get for sugino messenger cranks or the 75 cranks 144bcd. Hub will be a profile and frame is a soma rush. Sorry if that sounds weird but I'm super confused and this is my first build up.

Well messengers and 75's use different spindle lengths, and profile hubs give a 44mm chainline, so the solution would be to find the suggested spindle length (I think 109 for 75's and 103 for RD's which are the messengers) and add 4mm (2mm on either side to compensate for the wider hub) and then buy a bottom bracket with a spindle that length. So if me rememberings of the specs for those cranks are right, 75's would need a 113mm ish BB and messengers would need a 107mm BB.
check my numbers, though they should be close if not correct

So would a phill wood be alright in 113?

edit: sorry for bumping the old thread

Thu, 11/06/2008 - 21:19
frankstoneline
frankstoneline's picture

J-lo wrote:
frankstoneline wrote:
J-lo wrote:
I hate to pull a thread jack but what spindle should I get for sugino messenger cranks or the 75 cranks 144bcd. Hub will be a profile and frame is a soma rush. Sorry if that sounds weird but I'm super confused and this is my first build up.

Well messengers and 75's use different spindle lengths, and profile hubs give a 44mm chainline, so the solution would be to find the suggested spindle length (I think 109 for 75's and 103 for RD's which are the messengers) and add 4mm (2mm on either side to compensate for the wider hub) and then buy a bottom bracket with a spindle that length. So if me rememberings of the specs for those cranks are right, 75's would need a 113mm ish BB and messengers would need a 107mm BB.
check my numbers, though they should be close if not correct

So would a phill wood be alright in 113?

If my calculations are right, yeah, that should work.

edit: sorry for bumping the old thread

Fri, 11/07/2008 - 00:52
Brvn

Im going to bite the bullet and ask multiple dumb questions.

1. Can anyone give me a list of tools I should own/will need to put together an entire (fixed) bicycle?

2. Hatta 9400 bb + phil wood hub = straight chainline?

3. And the only one thats really embarrassing: How do you all thread double straps through pedals like this? Iv never dealth with doublestraps in person and have new pedals coming soon. Theres only one hole on the other side omg.

Tue, 11/11/2008 - 13:50
y
y's picture

1. Metric allen keys and wrenches, A pedal wrench (if your 15mm is too thick), crank puller, floor pump with gauge, 1/8th" chain breaker, 1/8th" chain whip, lockring tool, headset wrench (usually 28mm), BB pin spanner, headset press. (not all of these are must-haves)

2. Depends on spindle with (if there's an option) and the crank you want to use. But I'd be willing to bet that if you're gonna use it with a Japanese track crank then it'll work.

3. Just wrap 'em around

Tue, 11/11/2008 - 14:04
tya

JACQUES wrote:
1. Metric allen keys and wrenches, A pedal wrench (if your 15mm is too thick), crank puller, floor pump with gauge, 1/8th" chain breaker, 1/8th" chain whip, lockring tool, headset wrench (usually 28mm), BB pin spanner, headset press. (not all of these are must-haves)

I know you know this but: 32mm is the usual threaded headset size. A long bolt, couple of nuts, big washers and two wrenches = headset press.

Tue, 11/11/2008 - 19:07

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