Canti Chatters, Screeching.

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eric_ssucks
eric_ssucks's picture
Canti Chatters, Screeching.

What works, what does not, why canti's are shit. Also, to keep from shitting up the spencer blog thrad

tehschkott wrote:
eric_s wrote:
I want to throw all my cantis in the craigslist, install linear pull brakes, and be able to stop. We switch between wide and narrow profile brakes because the truth is that canti brakes are shitty almost all the time. It's like someone who is being abused thinking that their abuser has changed because they were nice to them on tuesday.

(abuse and spencer parts are two very different things: I'm not conflating the two, just the thinking process that keeps people stuck)

I love you for this.

Blakey wrote:
My recent (last 4Y) canti experience has been:

Oryx with tektro R200: terrible
Oryx with 9sp 105 shakes: terrible
Oryx with flatbar levers and a high straddle: super terrible
cheap mini v with flatbar levers: holy crap endos
mini v with R200: as above, but clogged with melbourne grass&mud super fast due to rim clearance
CR720 with tektro r200: better clearance, middling power, but no endos, better with 'cross' cartridges that take road inserts instead of long mtb carts.
vintage XT with 6400: great
Shimano 'touring' low profile with 6600 shakes: good
Shimano 'touring' low profile with R200: good
shorty ultimates with 6600 shakes: amazing [*]
Oryx with 6400 aero and a low straddle: shocked me how well they worked.
FSA SLK with 6700 shakes: good+
Paul neo retro with 6500 shakes: good
Paul neo retro with flatbar lever: decent, no endos
Paul touring with flatbar: skidzzz

All that said, I've never felt that I've needed more braking power in a cross race, but I have wanted for more power on gravel grinder type descents.

If I was buying budget cantis now and couldn't use mini Vs, those low profile tektros (CR710) would be the shot I think. Shorty Ultimates if you need a balance of power and clearance and can spend more, paul touring if you have a MUSA boner.

Or, you know, disc brakes.

[*] amazing for cantis.

Enough canti talk.

Fri, 10/19/2012 - 21:48
yonderboy
yonderboy's picture

You should rename this to Magura chat.

Fri, 10/19/2012 - 22:02
that guy
that guy's picture

Paul Mini Motos. End of discussion.

Bikes suck. Don't ride one.

Fri, 10/19/2012 - 22:59
Rentable Faxmachine
Rentable Faxmachine's picture
(Reply to #3)

that guy wrote:
Paul Mini Motos. End of discussion.

This^

Fri, 10/19/2012 - 23:13
Larry Winget
Larry Winget's picture

SCREEEEE
HORRRROWNK

The Pitbull of Personal Development®

Fri, 10/19/2012 - 23:13
EJ
EJ's picture

stopping is for quitters smiley

ckd wrote:
Hey Josh, WTF is up with your signature?

Fri, 10/19/2012 - 23:24
bobbythehawk
bobbythehawk's picture

dig my shorty ultimates

for good stopping and

ease of release

^not something i usually endorse

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 00:12
scrub
scrub's picture

CR720 in the front
Something else in the rear
Salmons all around

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 00:39
eric_ssucks
eric_ssucks's picture

screeeeSCREEEECROOWKKKscreeeee OH SHI!

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 01:01
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

would never go back to cantis, but i could dig some mullet action.

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 01:24
Blakey
Blakey's picture

Can't stop, just wanna scrub some speed off.

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 01:40
Brian W.
Brian W.'s picture

from shorty 6s to ultimates and WAM!.... stops pretty good. still no dick brake stopping power but cmon...

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 02:24
DDYTDY
DDYTDY's picture

Toe them in till they quiet down. Still chatters? Toe them in some more...
And read this:
http://sheldonbrown.com/canti-trad.html

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 07:41
curiousincident
curiousincident's picture

bmore shorty ultimate crue checking in

the release can be too easy though... i managed to knock the straddle cable end out of the rear brake arm with my leg whilst squirming around in some gnar. that said i was able to reach back and get it back in place within a lap

also make sure your headset is properly adjusted and get a fork mounted cable hanger, ya turkey

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 00:14
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

i have trp euro x's and they only squeeled after I bent my fucking rim and had to hammer it back with a crescent wrench halfway through a shift.

other than that they've been great, no squeel even in the rain.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 01:27
hambeki
hambeki's picture

Oryx to TRP RRL levers has been working great for me.

MoonCat wrote:
All bikes are really just overpriced crosschecks with different geometries.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 01:41
Roundabout
Roundabout's picture

Got the TRP Euro X. Bit of shudder up front at low low (as in stopping for stop sign) low speed. Need to adjust toe-in again and report back. Overall my best experience to date with cantis.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 04:47
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

Fuck the Euro X so hard, atmo.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 04:57
scrub
scrub's picture
(Reply to #18)

deadforkinglast wrote:
Fuck the Euro X so hard, atmo.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 09:43
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

Wanna qualify that with anything or are we just playing brianforums for the day?

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 10:58
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

I used it for ~6 months and found it to give all the ease of adjustment of my old Mafacs, but maybe half the power and twice the squeal. Huge PITA in general and, for the money, fuck those weak ass brakes. Using a $10 Tektro mini v now, and it is giving me all of it. The Shimano br550 canti I put on the back that I won't stfu about is a much better way to spend euro x money, since it stops the spencer in a timely fashion.

I fucked with those TRPs for months and never got anything resembling acceptable power from them.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 13:21
Larry Winget
Larry Winget's picture

I race with them so DGAF. Also, it's nice that small parts are available separately. The weirdo straddle cables can suck it, but I have spares waiting. Agree on the general meh nature and if I were to do it again I might just run v brakes coz singlespeed but I already had levers kicking around and they were cheap at spencer swap. I want to get some roller straddle carriers and a barrel adjuster on the straddle so I can run whatever wheels.

It's interesting going from these to BB7s on the geared race spencer though.

The Pitbull of Personal Development®

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 16:44
wickedwagon
wickedwagon's picture

cx70's. front is wide w/ low cable hanger and is good, but not endo good. rear is narrow w/ high cable hanger, not much power, but plenty of pad clearance to make up for my out of true wheels. i've used this for courses made entirely of mud and they still worked sufficiently. Set them up last year like this and haven't touched them since cos they're actually quiet and if i did change it they'd start making noise.

Though I rode a friend's dickbrake cross spencer and it felt so much better.

jordanpattern wrote:
BRING ME THE BINDERS OF WOMEN!

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 18:37
scrub
scrub's picture
(Reply to #23)

deadforkinglast wrote:
I used it for ~6 months and found it to give all the ease of adjustment of my old Mafacs, but maybe half the power and twice the squeal. Huge PITA in general and, for the money, fuck those weak ass brakes. Using a $10 Tektro mini v now, and it is giving me all of it. The Shimano br550 canti I put on the back that I won't stfu about is a much better way to spend euro x money, since it stops the spencer in a timely fashion.

I fucked with those TRPs for months and never got anything resembling acceptable power from them.

I bought them off you and tried a couple of different sets of pads but they still didn't work any better than my CR720 front/shorty 4 combo. There were too many wrenches required for me to mess with them in the woods or at a race. The last part isn't performance related but the rear would hit my leg if I had to get out of the saddle on a loose descent.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 18:44
fixed
fixed's picture

yeah, not backing TRPs due to difficulty of adjustment. shorty 6 is the best combo of stopping/not waking the entire city/cheap that i've found yet. shorty 4s are really quiet but screw those oldschool mtb post pads

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 19:00
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture
(Reply to #25)

scrub wrote:
deadforkinglast wrote:
I used it for ~6 months and found it to give all the ease of adjustment of my old Mafacs, but maybe half the power and twice the squeal. Huge PITA in general and, for the money, fuck those weak ass brakes. Using a $10 Tektro mini v now, and it is giving me all of it. The Shimano br550 canti I put on the back that I won't stfu about is a much better way to spend euro x money, since it stops the spencer in a timely fashion.

I fucked with those TRPs for months and never got anything resembling acceptable power from them.

I bought them off you and tried a couple of different sets of pads but they still didn't work any better than my CR720 front/shorty 4 combo. There were too many wrenches required for me to mess with them in the woods or at a race. The last part isn't performance related but the rear would hit my leg if I had to get out of the saddle on a loose descent.

I felt bad about selling them to you when I knew they sucked, but...well...I did.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 20:10
scrub
scrub's picture

Its OK, I traded them on for stuff that worked better.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 20:33
eric_ssucks
eric_ssucks's picture

So, my cantis started screeching bad enough it was hurting my ears, so I decided to fix them by cleaning my rims and replacing the worn out pads, and installing a crown mounted cable stop.
I had two weeks of blissful quiet-ish braking which worked, and then it rained. Now, my fork shudder is bad, my spencer won't stop, and the squealing is bad enough that drivers slam on their brakes when they hear it because they think a train is coming. I don't think these brakes play nice with my frame.

Anyone want to buy a set of paul touring cantis?

Wed, 11/28/2012 - 16:34
blumpkin

cantilever brakes are the greatest compromise in cycling history.
hope mini vs and discs finally kill the canti once and for all.
maybe a niche like muddy cx will still go that route, but for the love of
all that is good & holy, lets stop specing bikes with that bullshit. its damn near 2013 for fucks sake.

Wed, 11/28/2012 - 23:03
motorbacon
motorbacon's picture

Has anyone tried the CX75 canti's? Or should I just go with mini v's?

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 15:12
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

you should go with TRP CX9 or CX8.4

disc brake stopping power without the weight penalty.

I can literally throw myself over the bars with them.
I have paul mini motos. They aren't as powerful as the TRP, but the modulation is much better.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 15:55
motorbacon
motorbacon's picture

Cool. I'll order up some trp's when I get into work with money I have in my dreams. Fuck it. So gonna credit card that shit.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 16:25
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

The shimano BR-550 canti is awesome, as I said above. Mini-Vs are great when you don't have to worry about fenders, but it gets pretty tight, even with medium-width tires (JB Green) and 45mm fenders. I couldn't fit a tektro mini-v in the back, and the cable boot in the front touched the fender a little bit, but the power was awesome enough to just make it work. The canti I put in the back has been 100% awesome, with absolutely no trouble or lack of power. I would say it feels at least as powerful as a good dual pivot road caliper.

I had some cx9's for a while and I played with a spencer with a set of cx8.4's and I couldn't find a compelling reason to get those instead of the $11 tektro mini v, $8 kool stop cross pads and a $3 tektro noodle with an integrated barrel adjuster. Those are prices off the floor, not shopbro pricing. My only real complaint is that I don't like the super soft kool stop pads, but they fortunately can be replaced with any road pad when I wear these out. Probably going to put in shimano pads when I kill these. Which would probably require me to actually ride my spencer this rainy season...

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:29
hambeki
hambeki's picture

Plop. My cantis are starting to shudder now. I think I may have worn the pads a bit in this garbage that's outside all of the time now.

Luckily I don't give a pair of shits, so I'm going to wait until the squealing starts. Then I'll just take the bus.

MoonCat wrote:
All bikes are really just overpriced crosschecks with different geometries.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:49
motorbacon
motorbacon's picture

Running 6400 levers, so should I try to get the 8.4's or 9's? Or as DFL said, just go with tektro mini v's? This spencer will have me, a 230 lb gorilla, descending long and fast road descents along with lots of dirt.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:57
eric_ssucks
eric_ssucks's picture

I had the joy this morning of having brakes which only worked to slow, not stop my descent down the fluted glacial till hill on which I live. Lucky for me, there's little traffic, and my rims sort of dried by the bottom of the hill so I mostly slowed. Once I got to seattle and the rain had mostly stopped, then the wonderful squealing and shuddering started again. I'm going to take the brakes off this spencer, and sell them once this quarter is over. I'm done with my oh-so-uber paul touring cantis.

Edit: tonight, riding through traffic, back to the ferry, it took me a half a block to stop. basically: have stopping power, squealing, shudder, teeth; or none of the above.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:49
Blakey
Blakey's picture
(Reply to #36)

motorbacon wrote:
Running 6400 levers, so should I try to get the 8.4's or 9's? Or as DFL said, just go with tektro mini v's? This spencer will have me, a 230 lb gorilla, descending long and fast road descents along with lots of dirt.

Tyre size?

If you can fit them, the super cheap 80mm tektros (jensonUSA have them with a lever for lowlow prices). I've measured a spencer and it looks like I can *just* get away with 80mm arms and 35mm CX tyres and nothing else. 85mm arms, 32mm tyre & fender worked with 85mm tektros on a cross check, the noodle guide did rest on the fender though.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:48
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

^that, pretty much.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:50
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

for a big dude get the cx8.4
you can run them a little farther away from the rim for clearance and still have catapult you off the spencer stopping power.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:04
motorbacon
motorbacon's picture

GRRR, BTI has the 8.4's sold out.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:28
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture
(Reply to #40)

motorbacon wrote:
GRRR, BTI has the 8.4's sold out.

the cx9 works fine with shimano levers.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:40
motorbacon
motorbacon's picture

Old shimano? Not the new revised pull fanciness?

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:01
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture
(Reply to #42)

motorbacon wrote:
Old shimano? Not the new revised pull fanciness?

I used them on force and campy athena. just had to run the pads a little closer to the rims.
are you 9 or 10 speed? or 8?

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:19
JUGE FREDD
JUGE FREDD's picture
(Reply to #43)

eric_s wrote:
I had the joy this morning of having brakes which only worked to slow, not stop my descent down the fluted glacial till hill on which I live. Lucky for me, there's little traffic, and my rims sort of dried by the bottom of the hill so I mostly slowed. Once I got to seattle and the rain had mostly stopped, then the wonderful squealing and shuddering started again. I'm going to take the brakes off this spencer, and sell them once this quarter is over. I'm done with my oh-so-uber paul touring cantis.

Edit: tonight, riding through traffic, back to the ferry, it took me a half a block to stop. basically: have stopping power, squealing, shudder, teeth; or none of the above.

post a picture of what they look like set up

something has to be fucked whether it's the stud placement or washer arrangement or the straddle height

do the arms have play on the brass bushing they ride on? is the spring tension ratcheted up high?

It's a struggle, but you cut out his tongue, and his last words are "atmo atmo Atmo ATMO ATMOOOOOGORIHGGHRSHGGRLMGGMMGMgrrglegurglegrr....."
– akasnowmaaan

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:51
motorbacon
motorbacon's picture
(Reply to #44)

CheshireCat wrote:
motorbacon wrote:
Old shimano? Not the new revised pull fanciness?

I used them on force and campy athena. just had to run the pads a little closer to the rims.
are you 9 or 10 speed? or 8?

8. BAM.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:51
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture
(Reply to #45)

Dirty Sanchez wrote:
eric_s wrote:
I had the joy this morning of having brakes which only worked to slow, not stop my descent down the fluted glacial till hill on which I live. Lucky for me, there's little traffic, and my rims sort of dried by the bottom of the hill so I mostly slowed. Once I got to seattle and the rain had mostly stopped, then the wonderful squealing and shuddering started again. I'm going to take the brakes off this spencer, and sell them once this quarter is over. I'm done with my oh-so-uber paul touring cantis.

almost everyone's cantis I see at CX races are set up improperly.
Washers on the wrong side, arms not making that perfect perpendicular force vector into the rim. Shit is whack.
Cantis suck, but half the time they get a bad rap because they are setup so fuckign jackass it makes me want to slap the rider.
That being said, until I was taught how to do it all my cantis were setup wrong.

I just fixed GFbike cantis. It was a holy shit moment when we were descending some singletrack together and her brakes finally worked right.
Edit: tonight, riding through traffic, back to the ferry, it took me a half a block to stop. basically: have stopping power, squealing, shudder, teeth; or none of the above.

post a picture of what they look like set up

something has to be fucked whether it's the stud placement or washer arrangement or the straddle height

do the arms have play on the brass bushing they ride on? is the spring tension ratcheted up high?

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 00:11
wickedwagon
wickedwagon's picture

fwiw, my cantis on my cross spencer are set up with high straddle carriers. on my ss, I've got a front mini v (fuckin bad ass) and canti rear with a lower straddle carrier and it feels like there's more braking power. Another thing to consider is shakes on the cross and v levers on the ss. That may have a significant a/effect on braking power.

jordanpattern wrote:
BRING ME THE BINDERS OF WOMEN!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 04:20
blumpkin
Sat, 12/01/2012 - 08:35
JUGE FREDD
JUGE FREDD's picture
(Reply to #48)

wickedwagon wrote:
fwiw, my cantis on my cross spencer are set up with high straddle carriers. on my ss, I've got a front mini v (fuckin bad ass) and canti rear with a lower straddle carrier and it feels like there's more braking power. Another thing to consider is shakes on the cross and v levers on the ss. That may have a significant a/effect on braking power.

both of those setups are "wrong"

low straddles are almost always better on cantis, and using V-levers with anything but big-Vs or mtb dicks is bad news bears

do you just really like firm lever feel, with lots of pad clearance?

It's a struggle, but you cut out his tongue, and his last words are "atmo atmo Atmo ATMO ATMOOOOOGORIHGGHRSHGGRLMGGMMGMgrrglegurglegrr....."
– akasnowmaaan

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:33
Blakey
Blakey's picture

Mini V halp plz.

Bike came with Shimano Touring cantis, which were ok but not amazing, changed to Shorty Ultimates, which are great, but this spencer travels in an S&S suitcase, so resetting the spring tension every time is a PITA, so I'm moving to mini v's to keep braking power but also packability.

Fork: Alpha Q CX-20
Brake: Tektro 926 (80mm arm for max rim clearance with 6600 shakes)

Rear installed fine, clearance is ok with KS Cross carts, and best with KS Vee carts (thinner body & pad-arm thickness lets arm move further away from rim before the cart hits the seatstay), these are thinner than tektro vee carts, and also better than road carts, which foul on the pad retention bolt.

Front is where the headache is, extra fork material / canti stud placement means that the brake arm hits the fork blade before the cart does, limiting arm movement. I've filed the arm down, and now the cart washers hit.

I plan to keep filing the arm/washers down (prob just use smaller washers) until the cart hits the fork blade, but if anyone has any other suggestions I'm all ears. Any way to space the stud away from the fork safely, or the brake arm on the stud? None of the washers I have in the parts bin will allow spacing without fouling something else so far.

I mocked up another fork (stock fork on Voodoo Wazoo CX) and everything clears fine. Worst case, I can use this fork, axle-crown & rake are similar, but it's heavier with the aluminium steerer.

Seems I'm not the only one with this issue it seems (From: http://www.erikv.com/blog/index.cfm/2011/9/22/Mini-VBrakes-for-Cyclocross)
"but the arms don't clear the Alpha-Q CX-20 fork (it's bowed out for stiffness at the canti studs)."

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 03:41
JUGE FREDD
JUGE FREDD's picture

You could just buy a CX8.4 or other fancy mini-v for the front instead of trying to repurpose cheapo BMX jawns

It's a struggle, but you cut out his tongue, and his last words are "atmo atmo Atmo ATMO ATMOOOOOGORIHGGHRSHGGRLMGGMMGMgrrglegurglegrr....."
– akasnowmaaan

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 16:53

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