Juan Pelota Finally Caves

1343 posts / 0 new
Last post
white folks
white folks's picture

i always enjoy the "well they were all doin it" argument
well some of them were probably beating their wives
don't make it ok

distracted by ass pain

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 10:34
Bahamontes
Bahamontes's picture

My love for Lance has clouded my ability to discuss this argument rationally.

It took me a long time to realize this.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 11:31
akasnowmaaan
akasnowmaaan's picture
(Reply to #103)

bradencbc wrote:
halbritt wrote:
I'm hoping that the USADA crashes and burns because of this bullshit.

Ross Tucker wrote:
A no-compromise attitude to doping is exactly the reason USADA launched the case, and did exactly what they were mandated to do. Aside from the fact that they were pursuing many people still active in the sport, they also represent an honest effort to clean up the sport.

May not have been the best way to go about doing it but I'm going with ends over means on this one. I'm not suggesting you feel this way but I find it interesting that people seem to read some sort of personal vendetta by USADA and WADA against Lance. Do we say the state trooper has a personal vendetta against the speeding motorist? I don't think the personal beliefs of any member of either organization are really worth considering. Their job is to evaluate athletes, identify cheats, and sanction them. They are doing their job in what is probably the best way possible given the circumstances.

They were not facing some dumb ass like Ricco or the doctor that muffed up the blood bags for Vino and Kashechkin we're talking about a highly organized team of doctors, coaches, directors, and athletes that were willing to stop at nothing to win 7 tours and took their doping practices extremely seriously and were willing to throw large amounts of money at it both during the practice as well as hiding the evidence. It reminds me of the FBI and DOJ developing RICO cases to bring down mobsters. You rarely catch the big fish with "street level" policing, no matter what the crime is. I think USADA saw this and was willing to push the envelope a bit.

Will it be shot down in an appeal? Possibly. But even if it is the end result is that Armstrong is finally outed as a cheat and future cheats are given one more big reason to question the risk to reward ratio.

I do especially like Tucker's rebuttal to the idea that "they all were doing it so he's still the best".

This will all eventually blow over and the fans will still watch cycling and ride their own bikes... in the meantime the cheats will have to think that much longer and harder on just how big a risk they want to take and the difference between doped and clean athletes will continue to narrow. I view this is a good thing.

*Like*

Should have said it was just a cross check with different geometry. - Todd

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 13:11
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

Bahamontes wrote:
My love for Lance has clouded my ability to discuss this argument rationally.

It took me a long time to realize this.

I was that way for a while, and I still irrationally have some automatic impulse to defend him, even though I know he's guilty as fuck. It probably has to do with my age. I'm 24, so I was watching those tours from ages 11-17. I would get up with my dad and we would watch the beginning of the stages, then go to school, then watch the end on tape when I got home. It sounds super lame to say it, but Lance Armstrong was the closest thing to a sports hero I ever had. Obviously he didn't inspire me to race a bike, but I fucking loved watching him race when I was a kid. It was exciting.

Fortunately, by the time I realized he was doping the whole time, I had eased into my disillusionment with the gradual realization that every motherfucker ever to race a bike for money in Europe was on something or other.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 13:17
Larry Winget
Larry Winget's picture
(Reply to #105)

article wrote:
Take a rider in 2012. If that cyclist knows with certainty that his samples will be stored for years, and if knows that his victories today will be questioned tomorrow based not only on new tests, but on "non-analytical positives" and the accounts of those who know his illegal actions and secrets, I'd like to think it's a pretty effective deterrent.

As usual I think the Captain nailed it, but this is an interesting perspective.

Then again, I think at the base level most of these motherfuckers are pretty arrogant and are surrounded by people with their own agendas who may not be as directly impacted if their client gets popped 5, 10 years down the road.

The Pitbull of Personal Development®

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 13:24
NOVELTYNAME
NOVELTYNAME's picture

more like captain of my heart commandeering my mind amirite

"Folks want options!"

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 13:54
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture

The captain posted this picture the other day:

More here:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-effective-fight-or.html

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 14:19
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

thumbs up to braden for some reasonable analysis.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 14:19
halbritt
halbritt's picture
(Reply to #109)

bradencbc wrote:
May not have been the best way to go about doing it but I'm going with ends over means on this one. I'm not suggesting you feel this way but I find it interesting that people seem to read some sort of personal vendetta by USADA and WADA against Lance. Do we say the state trooper has a personal vendetta against the speeding motorist? I don't think the personal beliefs of any member of either organization are really worth considering. Their job is to evaluate athletes, identify cheats, and sanction them. They are doing their job in what is probably the best way possible given the circumstances.

The state trooper has a number of tools at his disposal to produce evidence that is sufficient to prove that a motorist has been speeding. The trooper himself and these tools come under intense scrutiny and lacking that evidence the likelihood that a speeding citation will stick is very small.

In this case, the same is true and the USADA has failed to produce any evidence other than the fact that they all know he was doping and they've got some people willing to testify to that fact. As you mentioned, that kind of strategy can and does work in a RICO case, but this isn't a RICO case as much as we want it to be. Considering the use of performance enhancing drugs to be a crime is a stretch and considering it to be comparable to organized crime is simply ridiculous.

In this case, I don't think the ends justify the means. I doubt that this process will have any influence at all on professional cyclists. What I believe will have influence is the continued development of the biological passport.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 14:28
white folks
white folks's picture

hey what do yall think of the weedpots being a PED?
pretty sure half of obra would fail a test

distracted by ass pain

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 14:46
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

I think you're dead wrong on this one.

As for Lance and his legal battle the fact is we DON'T know what all the evidence is at this point. Considering he has a good chunk of change to blow on legal defense and has chosen to throw in the towel I suspect he and his team looked at that evidence and knew it was a no-win.

Maybe I'm wrong and they are banking on an appeal or something that attacks how the case was built. I doubt we well ever know though.

As for deterring dopers, to imply that no one in the current peloton is not looking at this closely and thinking about their actions is absurd. The biological passport is clearly doing a good job deterring doping or at least deterring high level doping. Cases like Riis, Ulrich, and now Armstrong drive home that point by saying "we might not catch you now but if we catch you later we will still sanction you and take away those accomplishments you thought you got away with".

There will always be those who are so driven to win, morally weak, and reckless to get caught in the present but the Armstrong case is going to keep some of those guys on the fence from taking chances they may have taken before.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 15:39
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Yet again, we disagree and our respective opinions are characteristic of our attitudes on doping. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. However, I would've preferred they had solid physical evidence or simply just left it alone.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 16:38
teepz
teepz's picture
(Reply to #113)

teach me how to douggie wrote:
i always enjoy the "well they were all doin it" argument
well some of them were probably beating their wives
don't make it ok

Unfair comparison.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 17:00
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

From what I understand his biological passport during his comeback was pretty suspect... I'm sure that was enough to get the ball rolling. Sounds like they did not need that anyway because they probably had witnesses.

My attitude is a bit hardline because I actually race against guys that have doped in the past (we have several local 1/2 guys that have been former dopers in the sport or have come from bodybuilding and were not clean then) and some of our team guys at the elite level have first hand knowledge on how clean riders in a dirty sport feel.

Doping is EXACTLY the same as cutting the course. No excuses, no exceptions.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 17:03
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture
(Reply to #115)

bradencbc wrote:
Doping is EXACTLY the same as cutting the course. No excuses, no exceptions.

The world's best sticky bottle.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 17:06
white folks
white folks's picture

i'm kind of suspect about a couple locals
dude only a couple years younger than my dad routinely finishing with the hotshit golden boys?
scratches head

distracted by ass pain

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 17:09
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture
(Reply to #117)

teach me how to douggie wrote:
hey what do yall think of the weedpots being a PED?
pretty sure half of obra would fail a test

If Lance did that dope instead of the other kind, he'd still have the same amount of tour wins he has now. And maybe not so much the raging, inflamed asshole?

"Good race, guess I'm rolling the j this time"

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 17:54
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture
(Reply to #118)

bradencbc wrote:
My attitude is a bit hardline because I actually race against guys that have doped in the past (we have several local 1/2 guys that have been former dopers in the sport or have come from bodybuilding and were not clean then) and some of our team guys at the elite level have first hand knowledge on how clean riders in a dirty sport feel.

this x10000.

teach me how to douggie wrote:
i'm kind of suspect about a couple locals
dude only a couple years younger than my dad routinely finishing with the hotshit golden boys?
scratches head

pretty sure we may be thinking of the same old dude here...

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 19:02
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

The whole dynamic of amateur doping and how it ties in with low level shit like testosterone is fucking frustrating.

I could stop racing for 2 years, ride, lift, train like a motherfucker, all while doing testosterone and I would reap the benefits long after I stopped doping and started racing again.

Would I be cheating? By the book... no. But would I be doing something utterly unethical? Yes.

I don't know about your town but here we have had a few guys that came into the sport from body building all around the same time... some clean, some not. Watching guys move up through the ranks quickly while carrying 30 extra pounds of muscle is... well... interesting. Couple that with how there is ZERO testing at the local level and it paints a pretty shitty picture. I don't think any of these guys are doing anything now but the gain from past is there.

I think about guys like Mike Creed and John Hamblin who were utterly amazingly gifted racers come up in a time that riding clean meant not ever having a fair shake at the elite domestic level...let alone the international level. From 1997ish to 2007 choosing to actually play by the rules meant accepting you were at a disadvantage. Clean racers were literally PENALIZED for having ethics. That shit ain't right.

I say that until riding clean is ALWAYS a viable option at the elite domestic and international level then ALMOST anything and everything that wada and usada can do to that ends is acceptable.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 19:37
JUGE FREDD
JUGE FREDD's picture
(Reply to #120)

ryanoceros wrote:
The captain posted this picture the other day:

More here:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-effective-fight-or.html

and that chart is hiding the true extent of the problem by selectively trimming the data

the normal percentage is supposed to be 0.5-1.5%, but the chart omits everything from 0.4-2.0% to show only the super serious shit

but if they added bands to show the riders from 0.4-0.6% and 1.4-2.0%, the percentage of dopey samples would double or triple and continue into the biopassport era since they're testing themselves and doping right up to the limit of what would get noticed

It's a struggle, but you cut out his tongue, and his last words are "atmo atmo Atmo ATMO ATMOOOOOGORIHGGHRSHGGRLMGGMMGMgrrglegurglegrr....."
– akasnowmaaan

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 19:51
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

You're missing the big picture. The passport is a success because it simultaneously identifies dumbasses who take risks and forces those who are micro dosing to limit their cheating to the point that its effectiveness is drastically reduced. The author recognizes that microdosing and other careful forms of cheating do still exist but the frequency and, more importantly, effectiveness are clearly reduced.

Leaving the data out of the graph that at most suggests low-level micro dosing is not deceptive.... its just clarifying a simple graph to point out that the biological passport is effectively gutting big doping.

Ross Tucker wrote:
But first, an important question. Does this prove that doping is not happening? Of course not - riders are smart, they micro-dose, they mask doping by using EPO to switch RBC formation back on when infusion would normally switch it off...

There is almost certainly doping, and I will remain a skeptic, but I'm also optimistic that this new method, which will continue to be developed and improved, is having an effect by forcing more caution, and smaller dosages.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 07:47
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture
(Reply to #122)

Dirty Sanchez wrote:
ryanoceros wrote:
The captain posted this picture the other day:

More here:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-effective-fight-or.html

and that chart is hiding the true extent of the problem by selectively trimming the data

the normal percentage is supposed to be 0.5-1.5%, but the chart omits everything from 0.4-2.0% to show only the super serious shit

but if they added bands to show the riders from 0.4-0.6% and 1.4-2.0%, the percentage of dopey samples would double or triple and continue into the biopassport era since they're testing themselves and doping right up to the limit of what would get noticed

Have you seen this one? This was one of the more convincing posts in regards to actual evidence of Lance doping instead of just hearsay.

http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/27116068365/allright-efftards-captian-was-all-excited-bout

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 20:57
shiftGNAR
shiftGNAR's picture
(Reply to #123)

1percenttruck wrote:
bradencbc wrote:
My attitude is a bit hardline because I actually race against guys that have doped in the past (we have several local 1/2 guys that have been former dopers in the sport or have come from bodybuilding and were not clean then) and some of our team guys at the elite level have first hand knowledge on how clean riders in a dirty sport feel.

this x10000.

teach me how to douggie wrote:
i'm kind of suspect about a couple locals
dude only a couple years younger than my dad routinely finishing with the hotshit golden boys?
scratches head

pretty sure we may be thinking of the same old dude here...

Old dude cheating is so bad in TX. Guys in the 55+ masters putting down avg speed same as the Pro 1/2 group? Yeah...

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 08:21
cookietruck
cookietruck's picture
(Reply to #124)

ryanoceros wrote:
Have you seen this one? This was one of the more convincing posts in regards to actual evidence of Lance doping instead of just hearsay.

http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/27116068365/allright-efftards-captian-was-all-excited-bout

lulz
this capitan dude
is awzm

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:54
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture
(Reply to #125)

cookietruck wrote:
ryanoceros wrote:
Have you seen this one? This was one of the more convincing posts in regards to actual evidence of Lance doping instead of just hearsay.

http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/27116068365/allright-efftards-captian-was-all-excited-bout

lulz
this capitan dude
is awzm

thacaptn wrote:
oh thats right
its the fugginntour
n were do in what we do best
blood bags again

Woohoo! Blood bags! Go git 'em Lance!

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 11:08
crabbi
crabbi's picture

USADA came to our TNW last year. Lulz ensued as the masters dudes had their "oh shit" faces on.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
if you're here, you probably fucked up somewhere along the line.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 11:14
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/news/video-liggett-says-armstrong-witnesses-bought-usada-lacks-jurisdiction_236877

L O fucking L

Love how he keeps talking that USADA has some sort of top secret agenda to take town Lance but won't tell us what it is... also love the part where he says USADA has absolutely no evidence, as if it was in any way possible for him to possibly know that.

Phil Liggett is now officially the Glen Beck of cycling.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 13:57
cookietruck
cookietruck's picture

who is BALLZ ?!!?!??!!!!!!
best name ever

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 14:13
Ashes Dust
Ashes Dust's picture
(Reply to #129)

bradencbc wrote:
Phil Liggett is now officially the Glen Beck of cycling.

Hahahahaha!

LOL. Stay right there. Imma go put some cones out. - Heath
edit2: dont GIS, i did, dont. NSFW - Miguel

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 18:59
Bahamontes
Bahamontes's picture
Sat, 09/08/2012 - 09:00
white folks
white folks's picture

i think its funny when some announcer or another says some shit like
"this is tommy's year, hes looking really strong"
they been saying that since like 2005
lulz

distracted by ass pain

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 12:06
Larry Winget
Larry Winget's picture
(Reply to #132)

teach me how to douggie wrote:
i think its funny when some announcer or another says some shit like
"this is tommy's year, hes looking really strong"
they been saying that since like 2005
lulz

Dude makes the Schleckbros look like Jens.

The Pitbull of Personal Development®

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 12:15
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture
Sat, 09/08/2012 - 14:42
yahikokeirin
yahikokeirin's picture

I'm still BB'ing and taking my Edgar. F'ed if I'm coming in second on my morning commute. USADA and UCI want to test me...fine! I've been tested 1,000,000 times and never failed. They can pry my test patches off my cleanly shorn ass, my dead...blue...cleanly shorn ass!

You've never experienced the rush of passing some bro on his way to classes on a multi-use path, knowing you're the one suffering the most on their morning commute, never mind the actual job you'll be working once that commute is finished. Back in the 90's the commute was a little more intense. We had some local fred's running multiple BB's and their times up the 3% grade of the overpass were friggin' insane man. I'm talking extra-f'ing-terestrial. Fortunately things have toned down a bit with a few of them retiring from the commute, but man, you just ain't been there man...*thousand yard stare*

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 18:13
Bahamontes
Bahamontes's picture
(Reply to #135)

Bravo. Multiple lols

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 18:28
white folks
white folks's picture
(Reply to #136)

yahikokeirin wrote:
I'm still BB'ing and taking my Edgar. F'ed if I'm coming in second on my morning commute. USADA and UCI want to test me...fine! I've been tested 1,000,000 times and never failed. They can pry my test patches off my cleanly shorn ass, my dead...blue...cleanly shorn ass!

You've never experienced the rush of passing some bro on his way to classes on a multi-use path, knowing you're the one suffering the most on their morning commute, never mind the actual job you'll be working once that commute is finished. Back in the 90's the commute was a little more intense. We had some local fred's running multiple BB's and their times up the 3% grade of the overpass were friggin' insane man. I'm talking extra-f'ing-terestrial. Fortunately things have toned down a bit with a few of them retiring from the commute, but man, you just ain't been there man...*thousand yard stare*

/tarck

distracted by ass pain

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 23:39
akasnowmaaan
akasnowmaaan's picture
(Reply to #137)

Should have said it was just a cross check with different geometry. - Todd

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 00:55
halbritt
halbritt's picture
(Reply to #138)

akasnowmaaan wrote:
I'll report to Tarck

No need.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 00:57
NOVELTYNAME
NOVELTYNAME's picture

Lance banned from Chicago marathon

"Folks want options!"

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 11:51
Bahamontes
Bahamontes's picture

Chicago Marathon director Carey Pinkowski said Friday that sanctioning rules would prevent Lance Armstrong from running the Oct. 7 Bank of America Chicago Marathon.

Those rules, which prohibit banned athletes from entering races sanctioned by USA Track & Field, also apply to the Boston Marathon and New York Marathon.
Pinkowski also said Armstrong had not submitted a formal entry to the race.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 12:30
NOVELTYNAME
NOVELTYNAME's picture

Ohhh, banned before he entered. Like getting a rejection letter from a university you didn't apply to, total blow to the ego.

I'm sorry, you cannot eat any tacos even if you are not hungry

"Folks want options!"

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 12:38
timberland boots
timberland boots's picture

Lololololol

Anal Beads Al-Qaeda Ball Gag NAMBLA

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 12:41
timberland boots
timberland boots's picture

Is there any way to get Lance's mailing address? I want to send him a letter of banning for every time I ride my bike

"Dear mr. Armstrong,

Due to recent developments in your case before USADA, we regret to inform you that you are banned from participating in our trip to Blue Mountain to go mountain biking until you produce a letter of clearance from the USADA.

Sincerely,
Smitty"

Anal Beads Al-Qaeda Ball Gag NAMBLA

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 12:46
NOVELTYNAME
NOVELTYNAME's picture

LOL
You can't come on our camping trip bro

just start sending unsolicited letters like "no you can't commute with me to work. We have a zero tolerance drug policy there and I don't want to be involved"

"Folks want options!"

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 13:03
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture

Finished Tyler's book. Now I want George to write his own tell-all and donate the proceeds to Livestrong.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 23:49
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/media/books/Lance-Armstrong-Case-Closed.html?page=all

nice extended article on tyler's book.

at this point, denying armstrong's link to doping is akin to being a flatearther atmo. denying doping's effect on competitive cycling is akin to being an overweight football fan who sees the players as pawns of varying entertainment value rather than real ass human beings.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 01:23
Sneaky Viking
Sneaky Viking's picture

saw this at the swap and didn't know what to make of it

sharpie in 'don't' above it?

ckd wrote:
I mean, seriously. We're just a bunch of washed up bicycle burnout dipshits.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 07:48
xylobear
xylobear's picture

or 'lolwat' below it.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 09:46
Ashes Dust
Ashes Dust's picture

I like Russell's idea.

LOL. Stay right there. Imma go put some cones out. - Heath
edit2: dont GIS, i did, dont. NSFW - Miguel

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 11:10
tehschkott
tehschkott's picture
(Reply to #150)

xylobear wrote:
or 'lolwat' below it.

smiley

DO NOT CONSTRUE MY COMMENTS AS AN ENDORSEMENT OF BICYCLING. BIKES ARE DANGEROUS, EXPENSIVE, AND EXHAUSTING. DO NOT RIDE THEM.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 17:29

Pages