get me into cagro bikes

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ckd
ckd's picture
(Reply to #701)

Straws wrote:
I don't know much about frame design or engineering but I would suggest some support across the bed, at least at the upturn at the front. Also just behind the bed where it connect to the horizontal downtube.

There certainly is a lack of triangles in that general area.

-is a sandwich
-is a REAL doctor

Fri, 08/18/2017 - 23:12
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture
(Reply to #702)

jimmythefly wrote:
Straws wrote:
One major problem with the bullitt linkage is it has a tendency to flip the fork around backwards. It is super difficult to describe so if I can remember I'll recreate it at work tomorrow and take a picture. To be fair though I don't know how one would fix it.

I believe the term is "over-center". There should be a stop to prevent the fork from turning that far. I be it's exacerbated by the effects of steering geometry, lean, and weight.

A bungee or spring on the steering arm or fork somewhere so that when you get close to that state, it pulls it to the correct direction might help?

Omniums have the same problem and are solved with a stop welded onto the frame. The issue with the bullitt or any 'nose up' style of low-bed cargo bike is there isn't a great place to put in a stop for the fork crown. Bullitt has been recently pushing the use of a steering damper which I suspect is their solution but they try to sell the damper by saying it helps control steering under heavy load.

Sat, 08/19/2017 - 19:34
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

The best part is the SLX M7000 group on a Schwinn Crisscross.

Sun, 08/20/2017 - 06:18
jawn doe
jawn doe's picture
(Reply to #704)

Yuba wrote:
Easiest handling with smooth cable activated steering

smiley

Mon, 08/21/2017 - 09:26
schultzor
schultzor's picture

Yeah, I'm actually curious to try one out and see if that works. It sounds like there's dual cables for redundancy, and possibly adjustable:

Quote:
The answer is in a unique steering mechanism guided by four barrel-adjustable cables, like what you might find on a mechanical brake. It responds similarly to a regular bike, and gives you a lot more space for cargo. You can even adjust how responsive you want your steering to feel.

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/carry-it-all-with-the-yuba-supermarche

Mon, 08/21/2017 - 09:41
jimmythefly
jimmythefly's picture
(Reply to #706)

schultzor wrote:
With new babby life I've started thinking about maybe getting a bakfiets. I know of the Bullitt and Babboe, are there any other ones that are available in the US that should be considered?

Metrofiets and Cetma are two others I can think of.

deadforkinglast wrote:
But honestly, I have no idea how I am going to follow through on that plan and I already have a pretty rad bike. I think I just like fucking with my bikes.

Mon, 08/21/2017 - 18:59
jimmythefly
jimmythefly's picture
(Reply to #707)

schultzor wrote:
Yeah, I'm actually curious to try one out and see if that works. It sounds like there's dual cables for redundancy, and possibly adjustable:

Quote:
The answer is in a unique steering mechanism guided by four barrel-adjustable cables, like what you might find on a mechanical brake. It responds similarly to a regular bike, and gives you a lot more space for cargo. You can even adjust how responsive you want your steering to feel.

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/carry-it-all-with-the-yuba-supermarche

Frances Smallhaul has been using cable steering for a number of years.
I always wondered about hydraulic steering, seems like you could get great design flexibility and precision. Downside might be weight I'm not sure how small/light steering hydraulics components get.

deadforkinglast wrote:
But honestly, I have no idea how I am going to follow through on that plan and I already have a pretty rad bike. I think I just like fucking with my bikes.

Mon, 08/21/2017 - 19:02
jimmythefly
jimmythefly's picture
(Reply to #708)

Straws wrote:
jimmythefly wrote:
Straws wrote:
One major problem with the bullitt linkage is it has a tendency to flip the fork around backwards. It is super difficult to describe so if I can remember I'll recreate it at work tomorrow and take a picture. To be fair though I don't know how one would fix it.

I believe the term is "over-center". There should be a stop to prevent the fork from turning that far. I be it's exacerbated by the effects of steering geometry, lean, and weight.

A bungee or spring on the steering arm or fork somewhere so that when you get close to that state, it pulls it to the correct direction might help?

Omniums have the same problem and are solved with a stop welded onto the frame. The issue with the bullitt or any 'nose up' style of low-bed cargo bike is there isn't a great place to put in a stop for the fork crown. Bullitt has been recently pushing the use of a steering damper which I suspect is their solution but they try to sell the damper by saying it helps control steering under heavy load.

Would something like this work?

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/frames/thorn-steering-lock-limiter-striker-for-stepped-395-365-mm-head-tubes-1-18-steerers/?geoc=US

deadforkinglast wrote:
But honestly, I have no idea how I am going to follow through on that plan and I already have a pretty rad bike. I think I just like fucking with my bikes.

Mon, 08/21/2017 - 19:03
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

holy fuck. Yes it would. That is god damn perfect. Although to be fair I have no idea how long something like that would last under my company's use, shit breaks so god damn fast. We bleed brakes almost monthly. We use metal brake pads because organics burn out in under a week.

Anyway, I took like a million photos today describing the problems with the linkage on both omniums and bullits. I might still post them tomorrow but they're so fucking huge I have to resize them.

Tue, 08/22/2017 - 02:13
iwillbe
iwillbe's picture

Xtracycle is putting out some new cargo solutions, this one looks particularly good:
http://www.xtracycle.com/x3-slingset/

Earlier in this thread, I was considering getting a cycletruck conversion kit for my Edgerunner, now I'm thinking I may just use the Evo Brooklyn handlebar basket. I'm pretty confident I'm not going to need to haul anything heavy on the front of the bike, but for small things, it might be handy.

My desire for a sidecar has been banked a bit by watching the video they provide:

It's clever to use quill stems, but the whole thing seems like a zany kludge I'd come up with, more than a finished product. I like the "raided the parts bin at the bike co-op" vibe, though. The whole company feels like a few people very earnestly exploring how to make longtails work well, which I really appreciate.

And in general, I'm really liking riding my Edgerunner, now that I've gotten the Yepp kid seat off of it. It's quickly replacing my Crosscheck as my go-to commuter bike.

Tue, 09/05/2017 - 15:21
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

having ridden a bike with a sidecar....yeah no. I wouldn't trust your average bicycle commuter to ride competently on it. They're fucking weird.

Tue, 09/05/2017 - 17:45
iwillbe
iwillbe's picture

Doubtless terrifying ride quality aside, did you watch the video?
It's basically a commercial product that looks a hell of a lot like something the CHVNK666 folks would have cobbled together.

I mean, I kinda want one

Tue, 09/05/2017 - 18:22
NOVELTYNAME
NOVELTYNAME's picture

Jfc I haven't thought about chunk666 for a while

"Folks want options!"

Tue, 09/05/2017 - 18:59
NOVELTYNAME
NOVELTYNAME's picture

That one dude who split his head open zoobombing

"Folks want options!"

Tue, 09/05/2017 - 18:59
emor
emor's picture

Not into the sidecar. It doesnt even come with a platform!

"my main life goal is to have a dirtbag camper van with a bunch of bikes on it, go camping every vacation forever" -- me

Tue, 09/05/2017 - 19:00
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

Yeah I rode a sidecar at a bike punk event. Using quill stems to attach is actually pretty clever but definitely a freak bike idea.

Check this thing out. I'm not totally against it.

https://argobikes.com/products/argocargokit

Tue, 09/05/2017 - 19:18
iwillbe
iwillbe's picture

Oh wow, they made it out of Kickstarter and into the real world! The Argo conversion kit seemed like a good idea, I didn't think they'd actually make it. Okay, that's #9 on my list of bike projects, now.

Wait.

You could put an Argo front end on an Edgerunner, and also put two sidecars on the back. Holy hell the cargo capacity

Tue, 09/05/2017 - 19:39
schultzor
schultzor's picture

it'd be like a cargo bike Voltron

Tue, 09/05/2017 - 19:42
johnasavoia
johnasavoia's picture
(Reply to #719)

johnasavoia wrote:

Local dude is gearing up for a run of cargo bikes, and I'm gonna try to sell my xtracycle free radical and some other shit and get this done to the Research Design Coyote (current xtracycle frame)
Pretty psyched if it works out.

So I got to take this for a ride last night, and the guy building them put me on the bed (he rides around with an ottoman on the front for people to sit on lmao). When my 260lbs were on the cargo bed, it felt great. He purposefully hit a bunch of bumps and small curbs and it seemed super burly. When I rode it (both unloaded and with him on the front) I was shocked by how different it feels to push the cargo rather than pull it like on my xtracycle. Weight is probably similar if not heavier but felt much easier. He's redesigned the steering linkage to be more of a \_/ shape rather than the V it is in these pictures, and he says he's still iterating it before it goes into production. Also made it very clear that he and his buddy would be providing full warranty service going forward in that they'd fix it if it breaks, and change stuff if they make a huge breakthrough down the road, which is cool if true.

The only issue is I can't fucking steer the thing! Its so wildly different from any other bike of any other geometry I've ever ridden. I spent about 5 minutes doing donuts in a field and felt like I was getting close to getting it, but wow its so different. Didn't help that the reach is about half of what I prefer on my own bikes, they chopped like 4 inches off the front of that old schwinn. With me on the cargo bed he was bombing corners like it was nothing, so I feel confident that I just need more time on it. Hopefully I'll scrape the money together and it will be all built in a couple months.

Anyone wanna buy that supple trek I got a few weeks ago?

Fri, 09/08/2017 - 08:57
Andrew_Squirrel
Andrew_Squirrel's picture

Yeah, first time I tried to ride a Bullitt I had to stop about 5 times in the first block of riding. After about 10 blocks I finally started to feel a bit more confident. Once I hit the motor accelerator it steered like a dream! Not sure if front loaders like this are optimized for more stability at speed.

Fri, 09/08/2017 - 14:40
eric_ssucks
eric_ssucks's picture

They're typically optimized for stability and steering feel at low speed, where they spend 90% of their time. Once you forget how to ride your usual bike they're fine, though the cetma will never be good. At high speed you get the caster effect and your usual bike handling instincts are suddenly accurate for how the bike works.

Fri, 09/08/2017 - 15:09
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

Bullits steer better with a bit of load up front and at 8-12mph. I personally never had a problem steering them, took maybe a block before I was confident. But I'm definitely the exception to the rule. I personally think they handle better than omniums but I'm apparently the only person on the planet that thinks so.

and fuck the cetma. That thing steers like a dead fish and I don't even know what that means.

Tue, 09/12/2017 - 15:00
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

Bullits steer better with a bit of load up front and at 8-12mph. I personally never had a problem steering them, took maybe a block before I was confident. But I'm definitely the exception to the rule. I personally think they handle better than omniums but I'm apparently the only person on the planet that thinks so.

and fuck the cetma. That thing steers like a dead fish and I don't even know what that means.

Tue, 09/12/2017 - 15:00
johnasavoia
johnasavoia's picture

I've read enough bullit and other front loading linked steering cargo bike reviews in the past week to feel pretty good that I just need an hour on one and I'll be fine. Selling tons of my bike crap locally to fund this. Pretty excited, even if it won't be any more useful than my xtracycle. Sometimes you just need a project.

Tue, 09/12/2017 - 18:57
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

Dude anyone can ride a bullit. I always say (i've probably said it in this thread) the major learning curve is getting back on your own bike. After a day on a bullit you'll ride your own bike into a fucking wall when you first get back on.

Tue, 09/12/2017 - 23:06
VT regularbike
VT regularbike's picture

I test rode one once and the first few feet I dropped a foot , then I had a weeble wobble then it was business as usual. I honestly think it's all in the not totally instant feedback. Like I've built crazy chopped out bikes but it's still a direct link. It's just getting used to different feedback not the stability of the bicycle.

Miguel wrote:
i mean as long as we're spending money, lets just set the wallet on fire ok

Tue, 09/12/2017 - 23:36
jimmythefly
jimmythefly's picture

I believe it's got something to do with your body being located further back from the head tube. The way we balance a bike is by basically falling to one side and then constantly steering the bike back underneath ourselves.

On a typical bike and on longtails you are right up near the head tube, so any time you steer the bike to the side your body also moves sideways in space fairly instantly.

On a box bike style bike you steer to the side and the front of the bike moves sideways but you are back over the rear wheel and so your body moves less.

Visualize driving a typical schoolbus vs. if you were driving it from a seat right over the rear axle.

deadforkinglast wrote:
But honestly, I have no idea how I am going to follow through on that plan and I already have a pretty rad bike. I think I just like fucking with my bikes.

Wed, 09/13/2017 - 00:20
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture
(Reply to #728)

VT regularbike wrote:
I test rode one once and the first few feet I dropped a foot , then I had a weeble wobble then it was business as usual. I honestly think it's all in the not totally instant feedback. Like I've built crazy chopped out bikes but it's still a direct link. It's just getting used to different feedback not the stability of the bicycle.

oh man I never even thought about that. Having heard it from someone that also rode tallbikes it kinda all makes sense now.

god damn I miss my tallbike.

Thu, 09/14/2017 - 03:08
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture
(Reply to #729)

jimmythefly wrote:
I believe it's got something to do with your body being located further back from the head tube. The way we balance a bike is by basically falling to one side and then constantly steering the bike back underneath ourselves.

On a typical bike and on longtails you are right up near the head tube, so any time you steer the bike to the side your body also moves sideways in space fairly instantly.

On a box bike style bike you steer to the side and the front of the bike moves sideways but you are back over the rear wheel and so your body moves less.

Visualize driving a typical schoolbus vs. if you were driving it from a seat right over the rear axle.

One of my favorite things about riding a bullit is that I can see the front wheel way out in front of me. It takes a bit of time but hopping curbs and dodging big potholes becomes easier than normal. You can watch your front wheel approach the object in a way that you can't really do on a traditional bike.

Thu, 09/14/2017 - 03:12
johnasavoia
johnasavoia's picture

Dropped off my donor frame and a deposit, so hopefully in the next 3-5 weeks the bike will be done. Pretty psyched, and finally got a use for my pink token headset.

Mon, 09/18/2017 - 17:37
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

Cool. What donor frame?

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Tue, 09/19/2017 - 02:22
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture
(Reply to #732)

johnasavoia wrote:
Dropped off my donor frame and a deposit, so hopefully in the next 3-5 weeks the bike will be done. Pretty psyched, and finally got a use for my pink token headset.

You are going to need two headsets. Welcome to the weird world of cagro.

Tue, 09/19/2017 - 03:29
johnasavoia
johnasavoia's picture
(Reply to #733)

Rusty Piton wrote:
Cool. What donor frame?


Took this thing off xtracycle duty, big, burly, already heavy, and fits well.

Shortpants wrote:
You are going to need two headsets. Welcome to the weird world of cagro.

They've got a stack of headsets, told me I didn't even need to bring the one, but I want as much pink as I can. I'm hoping wherever they end up powdercoating it will have some good options in that regard too.

Tue, 09/19/2017 - 07:49
johnasavoia
johnasavoia's picture


Guy sent me an update, still lots to do but I'm in no rush. Psyched.

Mon, 09/25/2017 - 08:02
Viggen
Viggen's picture

Sw8 AF.

Whippin Skidz wrote:
This is tarck, there is a complicated solution to everything and we will endlessly discuss until an agreed upon solution has been tabled. This is out of your hands now.

Mon, 09/25/2017 - 16:06
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

That's so rad.
Stoked for you John.

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Mon, 09/25/2017 - 21:40
Whippin Skidz
Whippin Skidz's picture

That's gonna be awesome. Same color powdercoat when it's done?

Wed, 09/27/2017 - 00:03
johnasavoia
johnasavoia's picture

They're trying to find a place that can sandblast a frame that large for a price they can afford, so rattle can for now with the promise of a real powdercoat when they can. As long as its pink/purple/magenta or something similar I'm pretty easygoing.

Wed, 09/27/2017 - 08:09
Andrew_Squirrel
Andrew_Squirrel's picture

The other advantage of rattle can paint job is no-hesitation to modify. I'm sure i'd eventually want to add a tie-down mounting point or light bracket as I spent more time with it.

Wed, 09/27/2017 - 16:10
johnasavoia
johnasavoia's picture
(Reply to #740)

Andrew_Squirrel wrote:
The other advantage of rattle can paint job is no-hesitation to modify. I'm sure i'd eventually want to add a tie-down mounting point or light bracket as I spent more time with it.

Totally, they're planning on fabbing an actual kickstand, which probably will be welded on down the road. My fork will have a crown mounting hole and mid blade eyelets for dyno and fender mounting.

Wed, 09/27/2017 - 18:13
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

Omnium now sells a custom fabbed kickstand meant for, obviously, omniums. They originally shipped with a some premade double foot kickstand but apparently every single one broke including ours. So they had a custom one made that's super heavy duty. We bought two of them but to be honest we haven't mounted them yet and now that I think about it I'm kind of embarrassed because that was eassssssily 9 months ago.

Anyway. It's a kickstand that mounts in the normal kickstand spot but two super heavy duty legs kick out to either side of the rear wheel. If I can remember I'll take a photo at the office tomorrow.

No doubt that the bullitt style kickstand works better but that shit is custom fab and needs custom fab installation as well. The omnium kickstand achieves the same thing and I think it was like $60USD with some shitty shipping from denmark. Tops the cost is like $100USD.

EDIT: http://omniumbikes.tictail.com/product/jumbo-kickstand

To give you an idea of how serious this thing is, when I've fucked around with it (in hand, it's not installed) I take serious caution as to where my fingers are. It's heavy and the spring are god damn strong. Every time I pick it up I'm surprised by the weight.

Thu, 09/28/2017 - 01:18
JUGE FREDD
JUGE FREDD's picture

dude the Ursus Jumbo has been around since at least 2010

it's a standard part for euro bikes that fits normal kickstand plates, not particular to omnium at all

It's a struggle, but you cut out his tongue, and his last words are "atmo atmo Atmo ATMO ATMOOOOOGORIHGGHRSHGGRLMGGMMGMgrrglegurglegrr....."
– akasnowmaaan

Thu, 09/28/2017 - 01:53
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

Well fuck me, you're totally right. Fred do you know of one for a front loading cargo bike like a bullitt?

Thu, 09/28/2017 - 02:00
Shortpants
Shortpants's picture

http://omniumbikes.tictail.com/product/new-omnium-kickstand

This is what we actually have. So maybe 'custom' for omnium? Probably a rebrand of something else already out there but I remember talking to Jumbo (not the kickstand, the Omnium guy and Copenhangen Messenger) about getting new kickstands and he said he had something in the works and sent us a couple of those things.

But these are the ones I am scared of catching my finger in. I'm sure the ones I linked before are equally as burly but just wanted to clarify.

EDIT: I might email Jumbo (aka jimmi of Omnium, By-Expressen Cykelkurer) about this tomorrow. I'd be interested to see mostly because our bullit kickstands have really been eating shit lately.

Thu, 09/28/2017 - 02:23
JUGE FREDD
JUGE FREDD's picture

the Bullit OEM centerstand is pretty decent

I'm pretty sure we've put the Rolling Jackass remote design on some frontends too

the best ever is the custom front centerstand on Haulin Colin's Shamu longtail viewpoint tandem

it's a steel braced triangle over 2 feet wide at the base, connected by a linkage rod to a WI Trials freewheel on the captain's NDS crank

that means if the captain ever backpedals that starts deploying the stand, it hits the ground at about 45° rotation and goes over-center at around 60°, pedaling forward both propels the bike off the stand and helps to retract it until the spring takes over

the feet of the stand were originally magnesium, and now made from an even sparkier Ferrocerium flint alloy

It's a struggle, but you cut out his tongue, and his last words are "atmo atmo Atmo ATMO ATMOOOOOGORIHGGHRSHGGRLMGGMMGMgrrglegurglegrr....."
– akasnowmaaan

Thu, 09/28/2017 - 02:37

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