training thread

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halbritt
halbritt's picture

yeaux wrote:
halbritt wrote:
Nothing wrong with a 2x20, but a bunch of 6x5s might be deleterious this early in the season.

Earlier in the thread you said I should be doing 6x5's this early - what changed?

You asked for a VO2Max training guidance targeted to a specific event. Amy has a full season in front of her.

aerobear wrote:
Coach decided we all need to add 10 rpms to our average cadence this winter to see what happens.

I question the wisdom of this. Certainly, it's helpful to work on leg speed, especially if you're on the track, but self-selected cadence is usually optimal for most folks. I would assert that "average cadence" matters very little. Most of the time that you spend riding is well below FTP. The AEPF/PV relationship is what is most critical (cadence at power). For example, I have a slightly low self-selected cadence. Something around 87. However, when I'm 10% above and below FTP on a well-paced steady-state effort my cadence is well in what is considered the more useful range for aerobic efforts on a bike (90-110).

Note: this is true for "endurance" cycling on bikes with gears and is less true for the track and even way less true for bmx where max power has to be generated at stupid RPMs (~180).

Point being, work on your leg speed, but don't worry about your average cadence. Especially if you're not training with a power meter and can't do quadrant analysis.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 17:12
aerobear
aerobear's picture

halbritt wrote:
yeaux wrote:
halbritt wrote:
Nothing wrong with a 2x20, but a bunch of 6x5s might be deleterious this early in the season.

Earlier in the thread you said I should be doing 6x5's this early - what changed?

You asked for a VO2Max training guidance targeted to a specific event. Amy has a full season in front of her.

aerobear wrote:
Coach decided we all need to add 10 rpms to our average cadence this winter to see what happens.

I question the wisdom of this. Certainly, it's helpful to work on leg speed, especially if you're on the track, but self-selected cadence is usually optimal for most folks. I would assert that "average cadence" matters very little. Most of the time that you spend riding is well below FTP. The AEPF/PV relationship is what is most critical (cadence at power). For example, I have a slightly low self-selected cadence. Something around 87. However, when I'm 10% above and below FTP on a well-paced steady-state effort my cadence is well in what is considered the more useful range for aerobic efforts on a bike (90-110).

Note: this is true for "endurance" cycling on bikes with gears and is less true for the track and even way less true for bmx where max power has to be generated at stupid RPMs (~180).

Point being, work on your leg speed, but don't worry about your average cadence. Especially if you're not training with a power meter and can't do quadrant analysis.

Heath

I'm sure you would, which is why I often wonder why I bother answering your question. The point isn't too make us pedal faster all the time (though I don't really see much harm in that) but to be able to maintain higher cadence longer and have a higher max cadence. Which is I believe exactly what we accomplish in the contrasting 4 min and 20s intervals.

I am also more inclined to believe someone with 27 years of racing experience and 10 years of coaching experience and just do as they say. Not because what he says is absolutely, but by being his client I agree to be a part of his experiment to see what works and what doesn't work with his athletes. Some might disagree with this, but I think that the fact of the matter is - there is no absolute in what you should and shouldn't do for training. You can read all the studies you want, but there will still be conflicts. Different things work for different people.

I also have no idea what half the abbreviations you post mean and will probably not google them because I've got other stuff to do.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 20:25
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

halbritt wrote:
I question the wisdom of this. Certainly, it's helpful to work on leg speed, especially if you're on the track, but self-selected cadence is usually optimal for most folks. I would assert that "average cadence" matters very little. Most of the time that you spend riding is well below FTP. The AEPF/PV relationship is what is most critical (cadence at power). For example, I have a slightly low self-selected cadence. Something around 87. However, when I'm 10% above and below FTP on a well-paced steady-state effort my cadence is well in what is considered the more useful range for aerobic efforts on a bike (90-110).

Note: this is true for "endurance" cycling on bikes with gears and is less true for the track and even way less true for bmx where max power has to be generated at stupid RPMs (~180).

You contradicted yourself in your addendum note, which is about right because your opinion is invalid in terms of track training, which is primarily what Amy's coach deals in. Cadence (both average and max) is everything on the track (and to a lesser extent in SSCX) and maintaining/working on it year round should hold zero problem as there's very little cost and very much reward as far as high cadence/low resistance training goes.

Fuck it, I probably through in cadence work on 80% of the road rides I do.

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 21:17
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Amy, I'm not saying that your coach is wrong or that you shouldn't follow his advice. He's your coach and your point is valid that you have an obligation as his athlete to follow his prescription. You and I are having a discussion about your training where I may question some things, which doesn't mean that I think you should question your training, but it may give you something to think about or to discuss with him. I ask these questions, not necessarily because I want to debate the merits of his advice, though I am a contentious fucker, but really, I'm just curious to learn how other people do things.

To simplify my point, I don't think there's value in road cycling in trying to keep one's average cadence very high for the entire duration of training. Since a lot of time will be spent riding along at fairly low power. In those circumstances, the most comfortable self-selected cadence is usually the most efficient.

That said, leg speed drills are useful for road cycling and as Jeremy suggests, critical for track.

AEPF/CPV stands for average effective pedal force and circumferential pedal velocity which is the relationship between the force applied at the pedal and the speed that the cranks are turning. Put simply, power at cadence. 300 watts at 60 rpms represents a way different effort than 300 watts at 110 rpms. Quadrant analysis is a means by which a ride file is analyzed on this basis. If you got dropped on a hill for example, you could go back and look at the ride file and understand why you got dropped and train that specific weakness.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 01/28/2011 - 00:48
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

link me some awzum roller leg speed drills and whatumacallits

amy told me a couple for beginners but i wanna know more

Fri, 01/28/2011 - 22:12
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

You basically want to work on max cadence and average cadence. So for max you can do things like 30 second all out spinning, then for average go for 5-10 minutes holding something like 120.

You can also do the same shit out on your road bike in a low gear. Your hips won't lie when it comes to form, no matter the terrain. Back when I had to force myself to do this shit, I'd something like chill in 53/19 going around 20mph, then drop to the small ring and do max RPM for 30 seconds, rest and repeat 8x total. These days I just find it fun to spontaneously pick a small gear and spin fast.

A good 'sprinter-specific' drill as far as track involves using a short hill as your 'lead-out' on a fixed gear, so that when you hit the bottom you're over 120 and proceed to spin as fast as you can for 200-300m. You can do it in a low gear to hit a max cadence, and then in an actual race gear to simulate spinning under power.

Sat, 01/29/2011 - 01:54
yeaux
yeaux's picture

halbritt wrote:
Cool, I'd like to see it.

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/sw/EVBTQXNFDZNWPPQPM2MUQOUOOY

Weaker than I'd like to be, but good starting number at this point in the season I think.

Sat, 01/29/2011 - 09:50
halbritt
halbritt's picture

yeaux wrote:
halbritt wrote:
Cool, I'd like to see it.

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/sw/EVBTQXNFDZNWPPQPM2MUQOUOOY

Weaker than I'd like to be, but good starting number at this point in the season I think.

What's your bodyweight?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sat, 01/29/2011 - 13:06
yeaux
yeaux's picture

158 lbs

Sat, 01/29/2011 - 13:18
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture

AndreBear wrote:
You basically want to work on max cadence and average cadence. So for max you can do things like 30 second all out spinning, then for average go for 5-10 minutes holding something like 120.

You can also do the same shit out on your road bike in a low gear. Your hips won't lie when it comes to form, no matter the terrain. Back when I had to force myself to do this shit, I'd something like chill in 53/19 going around 20mph, then drop to the small ring and do max RPM for 30 seconds, rest and repeat 8x total. These days I just find it fun to spontaneously pick a small gear and spin fast.

A good 'sprinter-specific' drill as far as track involves using a short hill as your 'lead-out' on a fixed gear, so that when you hit the bottom you're over 120 and proceed to spin as fast as you can for 200-300m. You can do it in a low gear to hit a max cadence, and then in an actual race gear to simulate spinning under power.

TC: I like to chase roadies at the local park using the easiest gear I can to keep up. Looks kinda funny when I'm in 42x21 or 42x19 between 120-130 and not getting dropped.

Sat, 01/29/2011 - 14:11
halbritt
halbritt's picture

yeaux wrote:
158 lbs

I calculate an FTP of 208W or ~2.9W/KG and your 5m power at 291W or ~4.06W/KG. Your 5m power is already fairly high compared to FTP per this chart:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx

Probably best to focus on building FTP presently.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sat, 01/29/2011 - 19:17
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Yeah, I was just going to focus on bumping up FTP now. What do you think a good rate of increase in FTP would be month over month? Now that I now I have a weak FTP, I was thinking about keeping the same schedule as follows:
3 days SST ~1.5 hours
2 days 2x20
1 day steady tempo riding ~2-2.5 hours
1 days off the bike rest

What do you think about this plan? I was thinking about "sharpening" the base/FTP I build with this plan with VO2Max and other "race winning effort" intervals like Coggan/Allen describe in their book closer to my first A race (end of May).

Sat, 01/29/2011 - 21:50
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Ditch the "steady tempo" for a longer ride if you can, 3-6 hours.. Leave off one of the SST sessions for an "recovery" day. Start using performance manager. Read the chapter on it in the Coggan/Allen book. Ramp CTL at the recommended rate.

I did three solid months of FTP work last year and gained .3W/KG, which would put you around 230W. I'm older and have no genetic predisposition towards aerobic performance, but for that period of time, I was pretty disciplined and dedicated. I was riding ~12 hours per week. Also, you could consider losing weight, if you have some to lose.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 01/30/2011 - 01:11
smash
smash's picture

So my work schedule is really fucked up this week and I'll have maybe 4 hours of training time total (four days of an hour a day). I'm coming off a rest week so I want to put in some decent work. I've been focusing on base/FTP building to this point (2x20s, long rides, some cadence stuff) and my plan calls for another few weeks of that yet.

Any recommendations? Maybe 1x30s instead of 2x20s and the long ride? I know 30 minutes at FTP will be tough but I can probably get through on pure rage. Looking for maximal benefit to FTP in the short amount of time, but I'd also be willing to do some higher intensity stuff if that makes more sense.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 21:15
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

If you have 4 hours to train, ditch any idea of doing endurance work. Tempo (SST if you have a powaaa rmeter) and FTP work with recovery days should do you fine, although 4 hours really isn't enough volume to do much more than maintain...

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 21:47
yonderboy
yonderboy's picture

white folks wrote:
link me some awzum roller leg speed drills and whatumacallits

amy told me a couple for beginners but i wanna know more

Ripped from random Internet sources...

High Cadence Drills

Set 1: 5 minutes at cadence of 107-115, hands on tops and brake hoods.

8 minutes easy recovery riding

Set 2: 5 minutes at cadence of 115-125, hands on brake hoods and drops
or aero bars.

8 minutes easy recovery riding

Set 3: 5 minutes at cadence of 115-125, with 20 second bursts of
125-130, hands on brake hoods and aero bars.

Remember that your goal here is foot speed, not force. Relax that
upper body and feet and no bouncing! Gradually increase the length of
the interval and reduce the recovery interval as your body adapts.

Track Speed Endurance Intervals

Do 3-5 intervals that begin with leg speed increasing. 3-10 minutes long starting shorter and progressively increase the duration each interval.

Start at 80-90 rpms and increasing the cadence each minute. Be around120 rpms at the final 20 seconds and finish like the last lap of race at 140-150 rpms sprinting to the end.

Rest 3-5(for winter rest 10min or as needed when your race fit this will be shorter) minutes between intervals.

Use smaller gears around the 80-90” maybe slightly larger as you improve. Possible do the first intervals in smaller gear and progress up through the workout.

Top End Intervals

To do use this method on the trainer dump tension on after reaching 150-160 rpms and try to hold for 5 seconds. Measure progress by the drop off in cadence and overall the duration. If you’re able to hold, or accelerate by up to 150 the tension is way too low. The goal would be to hold 135-145 rpms for race gears. 120-135 for over geared.

When using the trainer dump and load method achieving the 150 rpms prior must near max as its not easy to pace a motor up to 40-45mph! When using a computrainer, magnetic trainer select a course, gear, or intensity that just allows you to reach the working cadence. You need to be close to your maximum output when the load comes, as this is the closest to real life scenarios. These efforts end up being short and not all that exhausting.

You are trying to maintain a certain cadence and after this falls off discontinue that rep or you’re training yourself to fade. For this reason I train these in sets of 2. After the cadence falls off, reset and follow up with another rep

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 01:17
toddistic
toddistic's picture

<3 jon!

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 01:35
halbritt
halbritt's picture

smash wrote:
So my work schedule is really fucked up this week and I'll have maybe 4 hours of training time total (four days of an hour a day). I'm coming off a rest week so I want to put in some decent work. I've been focusing on base/FTP building to this point (2x20s, long rides, some cadence stuff) and my plan calls for another few weeks of that yet.

Any recommendations? Maybe 1x30s instead of 2x20s and the long ride? I know 30 minutes at FTP will be tough but I can probably get through on pure rage. Looking for maximal benefit to FTP in the short amount of time, but I'd also be willing to do some higher intensity stuff if that makes more sense.

1x30 won't give much over a 2x20, but a 3x20 will shell your ass. Alternately, you could focus on kicking up your VO2Max for a week and see a little benefit to that and FTP. Do a couple of 6x5 sessions at ~120% FTP. Do a 10-20 minute warmup, then start your five minute intervals with a 3 minute rest and end it with 10-20 minutes of cool down. Get a recovery ride on the alternate days.

Chris Carmichael seems to think that very high intensity work is key when training less than 8 hours per week. You've got the recovery capacity, presumably, so that's what I'd do if I had limited time and a little bit of base fitness to work from.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 14:13
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

FTP: ~260W
20min: 275W
6min: 280W (old from nov)
1min: 499W (old from nov)
5sec: ~1150W

I need to retest my 6 min and 1 min. I'm sure I have some decent data from some of the climbs in Golden Cheetah provided I get off my arse and analyze them.

I weigh 153 lbs right now. It goes up and down depending on my colitis issues. I can be as much as 156 and as low as 148. I am losing weight now that I'm upping my volume. All the winter flub is melting really fast. I'm eating a lot more too. Forcing myself to, despite my better judgement that food hurts my stomach/body. Just polished off some roasted turkey, zucchini and butternut squash.

How am I doin? I'm just getting into the training plans. Doing 'cruise intervals' this thursday again to test my power and consistency. Going to ride with my coach on Saturday which should give a lot of useful feedback.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Wed, 02/23/2011 - 02:08
halbritt
halbritt's picture

FT: 3.7w/kg
1m: 7.19w/kg
5s: 16.56w/kg

Why are you doing 6m tests? A 5m test would help.

http://www.peaksware.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx

You're solidly in cat3 territory. 5m power might be a bit low (based on 6m power).

WTH is a cruise interval? Here's my training prescriptions for various kinds of adaptations:

FTP: SST (~90m or more at 87-90%FTP), 2x20 or 3x20 @100-105%FTP, RI is 2m
VO2Max/5m power: 6x5@0120%FTP, RI is 3m
Anaerobic/1m power: 10x1 all out, RI is 3-5m
NM/5s: 10-15s standing start, 10-15s top speed runs with or without motorpacing with 5-10m RI.

I'm dubious about any other kind of training prescriptions like 30 on 30 of or whatever. These are pretty well proven.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 19:04
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

did some intervals last night.. I'm focusing on losing weight and building for a peak in july (just in case I get the call).

I have my pt rear on the bike.. but I'm scared to hook up the computer :)

Heath, the higher cadence thing that Amy is trying could be beneficial.. my self-selected cadence in training and time trials is somewhere in the high 80's to low 90's.
However.. my average cadence after 90% of crits is ~105-110.. I'm trying to raise my natural cadence a bit, hoping to see it help in those situations.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 20:00
smash
smash's picture

^I think Friel talks about cruise intervals in his bible book. He defines them as 6-12 minute intervals that are at threshold. In his workout description he says to do 3-5 of them with 2-3 minutes of rest between each.

Personally, when Friel calls for these intervals I do 2x20s instead. Not sure if it's 100% the same though.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:46
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Friel's training bible is outdated and he says as much. 6-12 minute intervals won't really yield much benefit as I understand it.

dmotobear wrote:
did some intervals last night.. I'm focusing on losing weight and building for a peak in july (just in case I get the call).

I have my pt rear on the bike.. but I'm scared to hook up the computer :)

Heath, the higher cadence thing that Amy is trying could be beneficial.. my self-selected cadence in training and time trials is somewhere in the high 80's to low 90's.
However.. my average cadence after 90% of crits is ~105-110.. I'm trying to raise my natural cadence a bit, hoping to see it help in those situations.

What kind of intervals? I henceforth forbid everyone from using the word "interval" in this thread without a further description. It is meaningless. I did an interval the other day, it was a 1x60 at ~45% FTP. Like SST, some folks refer to this kind of training as JRA.

Why are you afraid of hooking up your powertap? It's not going to hurt you. Probably best to start tracking TSS so you can ramp stress appropriately for a peak in July.

As for cadence, I don't ever care about average cadence for a given ride or race. Again, that's meaningless. What I want to know is whether you are hitting the desired cadence at the desired power level. All of my SST rides last year were 97-93 at around 85-90%FTP and 95-110 100-120%FTP. This is about average for any road racing. If you want to do some cadence drills during your warm up, then fine, but it's not likely to buy you much in terms of power output or efficiency.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:53
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

halbritt wrote:
FT: 3.7w/kg
1m: 7.19w/kg
5s: 16.56w/kg

Why are you doing 6m tests? A 5m test would help.

http://www.peaksware.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx

You're solidly in cat3 territory. 5m power might be a bit low (based on 6m power).

WTH is a cruise interval? Here's my training prescriptions for various kinds of adaptations:

FTP: SST (~90m or more at 87-90%FTP), 2x20 or 3x20 @100-105%FTP, RI is 2m
VO2Max/5m power: 6x5@0120%FTP, RI is 3m
Anaerobic/1m power: 10x1 all out, RI is 3-5m
NM/5s: 10-15s standing start, 10-15s top speed runs with or without motorpacing with 5-10m RI.

I'm dubious about any other kind of training prescriptions like 30 on 30 of or whatever. These are pretty well proven.

srs? cat3?

dude i'm a 4...and a fake 4. I basically begged my local usac chapter to upgrade me because the 5's were filled with a bunch of mexican dudes who were famous for pushing people off the road/causing wrecks (so far theres at least a couple broken hips and a punctured lung attributed to them and their "tactics." one of them grabbed my ass in a race in an effort to literally push me into a ditch...IN A CAT 5 CRIT! THERE ARE NO PRIZES.) and winning every cat5 race and never upgrading because they didn't want to buy licenses.

that means I should actually have half a brain available to me to learn more about road racing/tactics when I'm trying to keep up with all the other cat 4 sandbaggers.

I'll try a 5 minute test maybe this weekend for comparison. It's supposed to rain so I'll have to ride short or indoors. We'll see where it stacks up

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 02:01
crabbi
crabbi's picture

Someone ship me a powertap for a week.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
if you're here, you probably fucked up somewhere along the line.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:23
tjayk
tjayk's picture

rabbi wrote:
Someone ship me a powertap for a week.

surely you know someone locally with one?

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 09:14
halbritt
halbritt's picture

rabbi wrote:
Someone ship me a powertap for a week.

Ship me a box to put it in. You have a Garmin?

CheshireCat wrote:
srs? cat3?

According to the power profile chart, which is often wrong, depending on the local scene. It hasn't been updated since 2006 either, but 3.7w/kg is pretty decent. Are you just not riding any hilly races? In flat races watts per square centimeter becomes more of a benefit and finishing crits is about having a good sprint and even better tactics.

In any case, you're doing "stuff". Do you have a training plan? You have a power meter, are you using performance manager? I get the impression that you're just fucking around on the bike and need some direction. What are your goals for the season?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 12:47
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

halbritt wrote:
rabbi wrote:
Someone ship me a powertap for a week.

Ship me a box to put it in. You have a Garmin?

CheshireCat wrote:
srs? cat3?

According to the power profile chart, which is often wrong, depending on the local scene. It hasn't been updated since 2006 either, but 3.7w/kg is pretty decent. Are you just not riding any hilly races? In flat races watts per square centimeter becomes more of a benefit and finishing crits is about having a good sprint and even better tactics.

In any case, you're doing "stuff". Do you have a training plan? You have a power meter, are you using performance manager? I get the impression that you're just fucking around on the bike and need some direction. What are your goals for the season?

I am just f'ing aroudn on the bike trying to get stronger. Had a meeting with the coach last night.

problem was because of med school interviews, I've had to cancel my major race. I'm going to do the "big one" a week later with my MTB team.

We're pretty much refocusing on endurance MTB racing. I'm going to do some road events as well. Also, most of the MTB events here are fireroads/paved roads with little bits of singletrack, so still doing lots of road training.

I wish it was easier to find a schedule of all upcoming races to plan what I want to do.

I did, however, mention that really I just want to slowly build up for MTB, and then focus really hard on next year's CX season. That was the most fun I've had.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 14:01
halbritt
halbritt's picture

halbritt wrote:
You have a power meter, are you using performance manager?

This is a tool that is part of either WKO or Golden Cheetah. Do you know how to use either of these pieces of software? Do you have all your ride files for the year?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 16:36
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

I'm using golden cheetah. My coach has WKO.
golden cheetah is used mostly just analysis for my own learning.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 18:46
curiousincident
curiousincident's picture

wait... did you just ask yourself a question?

and if the mtb races in my area turn out to be mostly fire road/paved roads, i'm pretty sure i'll just have to keep the entry money in my pocket.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 18:57
crabbi
crabbi's picture

halbritt wrote:
rabbi wrote:
Someone ship me a powertap for a week.

Ship me a box to put it in. You have a Garmin?

Garmin is next on the list. I was just going to get one after I bought my wheels, but being unemployed has hampered that. I'm working at the shop a few hours a week and that's what I'm working towards now. I can probably borrow a pt from someone in town. I was just being whatever. When I become a 3, I'll buy myself one. Or if I get a sweet job I'll get a quarq.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
if you're here, you probably fucked up somewhere along the line.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 21:59
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Well, do you want the powertap or not?

CheshireCat wrote:
I'm using golden cheetah. My coach has WKO.
golden cheetah is used mostly just analysis for my own learning.

I'm going to do a write up on Performance Manager, seems like you'll need it.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 23:42
aerobear
aerobear's picture

Brent has been using golden cheetah so far.

Can't use his powertap now though because now that i'm on campy he's back on sram... woops.

Who wants to trade me a new force group for some campy record 10?

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Sat, 02/26/2011 - 00:13
aerobear
aerobear's picture

Who uses Golden Cheetah?

Got a question..

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Sun, 02/27/2011 - 21:52
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Q for Heath.

Currently my training plan (base 3 phase) calls for a road race on Saturday or Sunday; this weekend both road races in OR got snowed out. Would doing LT intervals instead be an adequate call to make up for the lack of racing in my plan? All of my other riding at this point is a mix between zone 2/zone 3, sprints with full recovery, and max cadence drills.

Sun, 02/27/2011 - 22:18
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Jeremy, any time is a good time to work on LT. Assuming you're not close to being over-trained or nearing a peak.

aerobear wrote:
Who uses Golden Cheetah?

Got a question..

I'm quite proficient with it.

So folks, I'm going to introduce some terms and some notions along with the concept of "the performance manager". "The Performance Manager" is really just a concept created by Coggan and Allen. It's in the second edition power book and it's a tool that can be found in spreadsheet form in addition to WKO and Golden Cheetah.

If you ever wanted to answer the following questions with a tremendous amount of precision, then it's definitely for you:

  • How much should I train today, what volume and intensity?
  • How much should I train tomorrow, what volume and intensity?
  • How much should I train next week?
  • How much should I train next month?
  • At what point am I going to be over-trained?
  • How do I prevent myself from getting over-trained?
  • How do I prevent myself from being under-trained, or how do I arrive at my event in optimal condition?
  • How do I peak for an event, no really, how much training and how much intensity is required for a peak?
  • How do I taper for an event,no, I mean really, exactly how do I personally taper for an event?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 02/27/2011 - 23:46
halbritt
halbritt's picture

I'm going to introduce some terms:

PM: Performance Manager - the thing that gives us the answers to all the above, the software.
FTP: Functional Threshold Power - Max sustainable power for one hour
NP: Normalized Power - 30s rolling average of power for a ride. NP can't exceed FTP.
IF: Intensity Factor - relative intensity of a given ride.
TSS: Training Stress Score an arbitrary unit of training stress - synonymous with "bikescore" in GC
CTL: chronic training load, synonymous with LTS or "long term stress" in GC
ATL: acute training load, synonymous with STS or "short term stress" in GC
TSB: training stress balance, same as stress balance in GC.

These terms were invented by Coggan and pretty much pilfered by the GC dudes. "bikescore" is a notion invented by Skiba which is a slightly different mathematical formula that yields effectively the same result. Coggan has verified this fact.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 02/27/2011 - 23:58
aerobear
aerobear's picture

Heath..

Brent imported a garmin file today and as he updated his CP graph, saw that it had a ridiculous power spike. He adjusted the file and the CP line for his ride today updated, but his "best" is still based on the erroneous power spike (11,700 watts).

He can't figure out how to fix his CP graph.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 01:55
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Use the ride editor:

Remove the spikes, save the file, close GC, and re-open it. Should correct the data.

Anybody following along/interested on this PM bullshit? Wondering if I should waste the time on the brain dump.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 13:07
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture

halbritt wrote:
Use the ride editor:

Remove the spikes, save the file, close GC, and re-open it. Should correct the data.

Anybody following along/interested on this PM bullshit? Wondering if I should waste the time on the brain dump.

While I don't have a power meter, I'm absorbing the concepts so that I can apply them to my use of HR + PE. Thanks for taking the time! smiley

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 13:32
smash
smash's picture

halbritt wrote:
Anybody following along/interested on this PM bullshit? Wondering if I should waste the time on the brain dump.

Yea, interested. I'm familiar with the PM and terms but I only started using it seriously a few weeks ago. Could still be some stuff I need to learn. Thanks!

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 13:38
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Well okay then, I just had a canceled meeting, so here goes. Also, if anyone wants to jump ahead:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-the-performance-management-chart.aspx

Let's start with TSS. You may have heard pro cyclists referring to this at one time or another. TSS (or bikescore) is the way to qualify the training load of a given ride. There's some math involved, that I'm not going to share, but the basic metric is 100TSS which is a one hour ride at FTP, which by definition is the maximum power at which you can complete that ride. TSS is non-linear. One hour at FTP is 100TSS, but one hour at 50% of FTP is only 25TSS. Here's a good link about what exactly is 100 TSS:

http://www.twowheelblogs.com/what-does-100-tss-mean

TSS is the foundation of everything that follows and is based entirely on an individual rider's FTP. This is Banister's TRIMP, only extrapolated for power usage.

So, if Joe Rider has an FTP of 220W and rides for an hour at that power, his TSS is 100. If Fabian Cancellara has an FTP of 470W and rides for an hour at that power, his TSS is 100. Both riders have experienced the same training stress relative to their level of performance.

TSS gets weird under certain circumstances, like multiple rides a day and under certain kinds of anaerobic training, but for the most part, it does an extraordinary job of measuring training stress. A given ride has a recovery cost that is generally relative to the training stress or TSS of that ride.

This is from memory, but I believe:
0-100TSS: very little recovery cost
100-200TSS: recovered by the next day
200-300TSS: 2-3 days to to fully recover
>300TSS: ouch

IIRC there's a lot of 200-300TSS stages in the tour and some >300TSS stages. I'm not sure the general public really understands how gifted those athletes are to survive that kind of stress for three weeks.

Now that we've qualified training stress and how to measure it (with a power meter) then we can come up with some other useful things to do with it. The two terms that get used here are ATL and CTL, which are metrics that are an average of TSS/day over a given period.

Specifically, ATL (acute training load) is a 7-day rolling average of training stress. It represents accumulated fatigue. CTL (chronic training load) is a rolling average of training stress over a period of 42 days. It represents accumulated fitness. This is a model and these number are arbitrary. They were picked by Coggan and work pretty well. Older athletes or folks that are recovery impaired might need to tweak ATL to be a longer period. Younger athletes might make it a little shorter. TSB or stress balance is simply the difference between ATL and CTL. During the training period, TSB is typically kept negative, but not too far negative. During the tapering period, TSB is allowed to go positive. Peaking one's fitness is simply a matter of arriving at an event with a CTL that is as high as possible with a TSB that is either positive, or trending strongly positive. After a couple of rounds of this, one can learn how one's body reacts to TSB. Some folks perform best with a slightly negative TSB that is trending positive and other folks perform best with a strongly positive TSB.

There are some rules of thumb. For example, most humans can only sustain a peak CTL of somewhere between 95 and 120. CTL can only be ramped at a rate of around 5-10TSS/day per week. That's less the case for CTL under 50. In fact, until CTL gets to around 60-70, the model is less accurate.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 14:39
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Likewise, totally interested in the PM talk, just don't have a PM. If no one else steps up I'll gladly snag the PM you're offering and see what kind of watts I can throw at it... is it just hub or attached to teh wheelz?

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 16:42
aerobear
aerobear's picture

halbritt wrote:
Use the ride editor:

Remove the spikes, save the file, close GC, and re-open it. Should correct the data.

Anybody following along/interested on this PM bullshit? Wondering if I should waste the time on the brain dump.

Al already edited it out of the ride for Brent, so it no longer shows up in the ride. Just went to the editor again and the max power in that ride is about 1000 watts, but when you got to critical power the 1s is at like 20k watts

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 17:38
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

halbritt wrote:
95-110 100-120%FTP. This is about average for any road racing. If you want to do some cadence drills during your warm up, then fine, but it's not likely to buy you much in terms of power output or efficiency.

The problem is that my self selected cadence is much slower if I'm doing say 300 watts ave in a time trial than if I have a normalized of 300w in a crit. like 20rpm slower.

Further, I see a noticeable difference in how those two situations feel. The time trial I am on the limit but my breathing is fine while in the crit I will have a side-ache from breathing so hard.

In other news, I went to install the powertap harness and couldn't find any small zipties.. I'll try again tonight and probably do a few 2x20's to get an idea of where I'm at. I did a power test a few months ago and was ~235w, tonight I'm hoping for 250w. I need to be at least 275w to be anywhere near competitive in the next month or two.

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 17:57
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Dylan, sounds like you need to work on form and cadence, then. Not terribly unusual, especially considering the different positions.

AndreBear wrote:
Likewise, totally interested in the PM talk, just don't have a PM. If no one else steps up I'll gladly snag the PM you're offering and see what kind of watts I can throw at it... is it just hub or attached to teh wheelz?

Wireless PT on a DT Swiss RR1.2. The rim is shit and due to be replaced soon, but it works fine. You have a Garmin?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 18:52
halbritt
halbritt's picture

aerobear wrote:
Al already edited it out of the ride for Brent, so it no longer shows up in the ride. Just went to the editor again and the max power in that ride is about 1000 watts, but when you got to critical power the 1s is at like 20k watts

Goddammit, this happened to me the other day and I don't remember how I fixed it. Then, my laptop was erased and I forgot to backup GC. I'll see if I can find an answer for you.

Also, questions on the following: TSS, CTL, ATL, TSB, etc?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 18:55
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

halbritt wrote:
AndreBear wrote:
Likewise, totally interested in the PM talk, just don't have a PM. If no one else steps up I'll gladly snag the PM you're offering and see what kind of watts I can throw at it... is it just hub or attached to teh wheelz?

Wireless PT on a DT Swiss RR1.2. The rim is shit and due to be replaced soon, but it works fine. You have a Garmin?

Nah, no head-unit in my possession although theoretically I can use my iPhone right?

Ahh shit, wheel's Shimano eh?

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 20:11
smash
smash's picture

Heath, thanks for the PM breakdown. One Q: what time range should I have GC basing the BikeScore estimate on? 30 days?

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 22:54

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