training thread

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halbritt
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Hill repeats are quality training. Drop the tempo rides, they're pointless. Make 'em recovery rides. or SST.

8x20s with 10s rest are also pointless. So are 30/30s. If you want to do sprint training, then get fully recovered before you jump for 10 or 20 or even 30 seconds.

If you want to win, keep increasing FTP and start working on VO2Max. Try throwing in some 6x5 intervals. That's 5m at ~105% FTP with 3-5m of rest. The sixth should be really hard. VO2Max work is typically reserved for "build" period.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 01/13/2011 - 16:41
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Why are sprint intervals as i have been doing useless? It seems to me that you never need to sprint when you're completely rested during a race, so it stands to reason that doing them while taxed would help. Just wondering what your reason is.

From what I've read, generally only do 1 VO2 Max set per week for a few weeks before adding another day to it right? Would recommend doing the VO2Max now, or wait til Build periods?

So, basically, you recommend doing SST, 2x20's, and VO2Max days strictly. Anything else is a waste of my time right now, right?

One more question, what's your typical taper look like the week leading up to a race?

Thanks.

Thu, 01/13/2011 - 17:04
halbritt
halbritt's picture

A typical taper involves reducing volume while preserving or increasing intensity. It's a lot easier if you're using a power meter and performance manager. I wouldn't give specific coaching advice to anyone that wasn't.

How much base do you have presently? If you have some and plenty of time before your next race, then it wouldn't do any harm to add in six weeks of VO2Max work now along with your SST and your 2x20s.

As for the intervals you described, I can say this: The intention is to tax a specific energy system. If you do on/off intervals you're only taxing the energy system that yields your average power for the duration. Your average power for a long enough period is always going to be limited by FTP. To stimulate adaptation for a particular energy system, it's best to spend as much time as possible at near maximal power output for that energy system.

A lot of people believe that not being fully recovered for an interval will cause one to adapt to recovering better, but what really happens is that the interval is performed at an intensity lower than it could have otherwise been. The ability to fully recover from an effort is more related to raising one's FTP.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 01/13/2011 - 18:28
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Imma cross-post this. Thanks, Mikey.

He's in the wind at 48mph. He's fucking blazing.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 01/13/2011 - 18:36
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Got it - i've never heard it explained that way and it makes a lot more sense now.

I still have 10 weeks until the first race I want to do well in. So, if my typical week included 2 days SST, 2 days 2x20, 1 day VO2Max, 2 days rest, you think I'd be good? Should this involve a type of periodization as I get closer to race day, for instance, by dropping one of the SST and adding another VO2Max? Or by following the 4 week blocks like Friel suggests?

Also, it seems like you're saying that when I'm doing the VO2Max intervals, I should make sure I'm fully recovered before doing them, as opposed to recovering for an arbitrary 2-3 minutes, right?

Really appreciate the help. Thanks.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 08:38
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Also, you see this article? I seems to me like 2x20's and SST fall in the 80%.

http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 09:28
y
y's picture

Great article. Interesting how a few small studies with more or less equivocal results are all that support alot of what passes as common knowlege on internet fora.

Everyone wants the 5 minute abs, but the reality is that it takes years to become an accomplished cyclist. I think most amateurs would do best to focus on riding more and getting to know their bodies.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 10:54
halbritt
halbritt's picture

In the end, we can all benefit from having a higher FTP. Some folks want to actually race, though.

yeaux wrote:
Got it - i've never heard it explained that way and it makes a lot more sense now.

I still have 10 weeks until the first race I want to do well in. So, if my typical week included 2 days SST, 2 days 2x20, 1 day VO2Max, 2 days rest, you think I'd be good? Should this involve a type of periodization as I get closer to race day, for instance, by dropping one of the SST and adding another VO2Max? Or by following the 4 week blocks like Friel suggests?

Also, it seems like you're saying that when I'm doing the VO2Max intervals, I should make sure I'm fully recovered before doing them, as opposed to recovering for an arbitrary 2-3 minutes, right?

Really appreciate the help. Thanks.

Stay with your existing program for six weeks. You probably need a long day (>2hrs LSD) and only one rest day. Cut out one day of SST and have a "recovery" day. Put your VO2Max day early in the week so you're in good shape for it. After six weeks, do two days of VO2Max work per week cutting out one of the SST days. Your 2x20s should be damned hard for this period. In the last week, cut your volume and keep a VO2Max day.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 14:38
aerobear
aerobear's picture

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/63385169

I just garmin mapped my intervals on the rollers.
I like the map it made.

I don't have cadence as one of the windows on my home screen (didnt have the cadence meter yet when i set up the garmin), so glad I see my cadence is looking pretty decent on my 2-minute intervals. Last month I was doing leg speed intervals and I had to "guess" so I think I'm doing okay. Trying to make up for years of "mashing" on a sick fixie.

I need to figure out my heart rate "zones" I guess. I don't quite get the zone training, but using a HR monitor I'm getting a good idea of what I can maintain and what I hit when I'm about to blow up.

I try to keep it under 175 when I'm climbing. 165-170 feels like my safe zone - hard, but maintainable. Everything higher seems like what i'd reserve for a final sprint.

We are all doing a time-trial test on saturday - 12 mile TT. Interested to see how that goes. I did a TT effort on the same course last year with brent, but he forgot to reset the time, so I have little to compare it to but I know what kinda pace I did earlier so I can use that as a base and try to improve on it.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 15:54
halbritt
halbritt's picture

What was your time on the TT last year? ~30 minutes? Your average HR for the entire TT should represent something close to your LTHR, from there I can work out your training zones.

HR training sucks. Get a power meter.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:53
aerobear
aerobear's picture

halbritt wrote:
What was your time on the TT last year? ~30 minutes? Your average HR for the entire TT should represent something close to your LTHR, from there I can work out your training zones.

HR training sucks. Get a power meter.

Heath - my pace was just around 22.5mph last year. So I think that'd be just over 30 minutes. But I also did a lap first sitting on brents wheel (at around the same pace).

I only did one road TT last year: http://connect.garmin.com/activity/31298774 And my speed is all over the place, mostly due to poor pacing, but partiallydue to it being a slight up hill with varying grades.

I just want to get a little more consistancy. Out at Sauvie Island it's pretty flat, but there will be a headwind in one direction and a tail wind in another since it's a loop so I'll have to get a good feel for that in order to set my pace accordingly.

It'll be a while before I can afford a power meter, so I'm going to have to work with HR for now.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:06
halbritt
halbritt's picture

aerobear wrote:
It'll be a while before I can afford a power meter, so I'm going to have to work with HR for now.

You use the tools that you have at your disposal and do your best, I understand I'm half-tempted to send you my power meter.

Anyway, 30 minutes is good enough to give you LTHR, which is similar to FTP and the basis for the other zones. Do the TT, then send me the file or post it up on Garmin connect and I'll help you figure out the rest.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 00:52
smash
smash's picture

Roads are too crappy to do a long ride. What's better: shorter time indoors and up the intensity, or ride easy indoors and then go for a run? I'm thinking 2x20 VS 90 minutes indoors + 60-90 minute run.

The second way seems closer to the original point of doing a long ride, but I don't know if doing half of it off the bike negates that.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 11:34
y
y's picture

I'd do number two.

Base training is intended to stimulate what are referred to as peripheral adaptations, i.e., the heart, blood and lungs; and to a lesser extent your cells' mitochondria. None of these things "care" whether you're on a bike or not, and will benefit from whatever you throw at them. Since you're still riding a bit you probably won't forget how to pedal either.

I like to do a bunch of skiing for base.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 12:20
y
y's picture

dubbil

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 12:21
smash
smash's picture

Makes sense, thanks. Kinda wish skiing was an option for me, snow turns to slop really fast 'round here.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 13:18
halbritt
halbritt's picture

smash wrote:
Roads are too crappy to do a long ride. What's better: shorter time indoors and up the intensity, or ride easy indoors and then go for a run? I'm thinking 2x20 VS 90 minutes indoors + 60-90 minute run.

The second way seems closer to the original point of doing a long ride, but I don't know if doing half of it off the bike negates that.

Run if you like running, but if you want to improve your cycling fitness, 2x20 is the best option. If you want to preserve your fitness, google for Coggan's "90/90/90" workout.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 13:38
aerobear
aerobear's picture

halbritt wrote:
aerobear wrote:
It'll be a while before I can afford a power meter, so I'm going to have to work with HR for now.

You use the tools that you have at your disposal and do your best, I understand I'm half-tempted to send you my power meter.

Anyway, 30 minutes is good enough to give you LTHR, which is similar to FTP and the basis for the other zones. Do the TT, then send me the file or post it up on Garmin connect and I'll help you figure out the rest.

So coach held us all to start us, staggering us 30s like a normal TT. Bumped the magnet on my rear wheel, so it wasn't reading right (said i was going 14-15mph). Overrides the gps and had my speed and distance all wrong.

Not too mad cuz we were all slow as fuck. The fastest guy who did it did the 20k in 30:41, I was at 34:21. The weather was rough - windy, but not enough to give you much of an advantage in any direction, super rainy, etc.

I just parked it at 175bpm and held it, 180bpm once i could see the finish. My hips were really bothering me - I think I need to adjust my saddle a bit. When I first set this bike up, my usual saddle height felt too high for some reason so I lowered it, but now it feels awful.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Sun, 01/16/2011 - 02:59
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Give me the file.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:29
aerobear
aerobear's picture

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/63838482

Man..definitely was reading shit real funny. It lists all these weird "spikes" in my cadence that clearly never happened. Misreads on the cadence meter seem pretty common though, it's always listing my max cadence at 200+ rpms on my files. Also has a max speed of 43mph which clearly also did not happen.

This is the horrible ride we did afterwards:
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/63838477

Note where my cadence drops into the 40s trying to climb a 15% grade after doing a TT. Ughh. I was able to keep my HR real low though! Cuz legs felt so burnt.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Sun, 01/16/2011 - 21:47
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

hell yeah love mcnamee. so nice and quiet

Sun, 01/16/2011 - 22:53
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

halbritt wrote:
AndreBear wrote:
Heath, what can you tell me about 'weight training on the bike' type workouts, i.e., low RPM / big gear stuff? I want to continue building leg strength for the sprint.

Doesn't work. I'd recommend doing anaerobic intervals (10x1s) and NM intervals (10-15s all out).

Doesn't work in general or doesn't work for sprinting?

Sun, 01/16/2011 - 23:44
aerobear
aerobear's picture

white folks wrote:
hell yeah love mcnamee. so nice and quiet

Yeah it's an alright street. Just sucked balls in this instance.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Mon, 01/17/2011 - 14:12
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

For the record Heath I'm following this to make up for lack of weights now that my hand is broken/healing in a cast:

SFR - Slow Frequency Repetitions (SFR) are performed on steady 4-5% grade, in a gear that allows 40-60 rpm, and perceived effort of 60-70%. The goal of the workout is to work the entire pedal revolution – pushing over the top, pulling back – to build strength as well as pedal efficiency. This is not a max effort and focus must be on entire pedal revolution. Warm-up with 6x 15 sec single legs, increase by 15 sec every two to three weeks (as long as pedaling is smooth – no dead spots) to build to a max of 6x1min (each leg). SFR workout is 6x 2min, increase by 30 seconds every two weeks to build to 10x 5 min. Complete workout with 10-20 min high cadence 100-120 rpm. Perform 1-2x week.

We've got a well-acclaimed local coach who has his athletes do something along these lines. Aldo Sassi has also mentioned in interviews how SFR would form the base strength aspect for guys like Ivan and Cadel.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Mon, 01/17/2011 - 16:06
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

so like a super low rpm one foot pedaling drill? im into it

Mon, 01/17/2011 - 17:20
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Nah, the one legged pedaling is a warmup to loosen the hip flexors and emphasize a round stroke. Not supposed to be super low RPM on that one.

Mon, 01/17/2011 - 19:38
halbritt
halbritt's picture

AndreBear wrote:
We've got a well-acclaimed local coach who has his athletes do something along these lines. Aldo Sassi has also mentioned in interviews how SFR would form the base strength aspect for guys like Ivan and Cadel.

I can't argue with the success or lack thereof that an individual coach has with a technique. I have read a fair bit about this technique that's been debunked by a few folks, specifically Andy Coggan.

It's not enough force to stimulate hypertrophy and the law of specificity suggests that you'll get stronger at high force low cadence efforts.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Mon, 01/17/2011 - 22:50
PCAM
PCAM's picture

Apologies for newb question, but I'm going to be working at a mine in the middle of the arctic for the next four weeks. They have a full weight room and spinning bikes. I haven't done any serious riding since the fall and want to get back into form. Can anyone point me to a good program to follow? Last time I was up there I was doing tabata intervals and squats 3x a week which was really fun, but I'm not sure how much they helped my cycling.

Mon, 01/17/2011 - 23:52
halbritt
halbritt's picture

I'd recommend doing the squats and hitting the spinning bikes for a good 20-30 minutes. Don't worry about intervals.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 01/18/2011 - 00:56
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Finally was able to get my hands on a powertap to use for this season. Halbritt, would you recommend just riding with it like normal for a couple days to get the feel of it and see what my power levels are at a given RPE, or would you recommend just going straight with the FTP test and training based on that as soon as possible.

Going to read Coggan's book as quickly as I can. Any other input would be appreciated.

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 13:01
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Just riding around with it isn't going to do much good. Order Coggan's book. Do your power testing. You have Golden Cheetah? Download it and get ready to get started.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 01:58
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Right on. I'll just plan on doin the test right away. I use training peaks already, so I was thinking about using wko for my analysis because other people on my team do and say they like it more than gc.

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 11:24
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Have you purchased WKO? If you're already using training peaks and you're committed to training with power, then definitely use it if you don't mind spending the money. Otherwise, GC works just fine. In either case, there's a learning curve.

Do you know what the testing protocol should be?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 13:51
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Yeah - I just got through that portion of the Coggan-Allen book. I'll make public on TrainingPeaks my FTP test if you want to look at it. I plan on testing it around Thursday/Friday.

Mon, 01/24/2011 - 08:08
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Cool, I'd like to see it.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 01/25/2011 - 01:09
aerobear
aerobear's picture

Actually got my 3+ hour wednesday ride in for the second week in a row. Maybe slowly starting to get some road fitness.

Also just googled the girl I rode with today and apparently she was on the rock racing team in 2008 smiley

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Wed, 01/26/2011 - 17:42
halbritt
halbritt's picture

aerobear wrote:
Actually got my 3+ hour wednesday ride in for the second week in a row. Maybe slowly starting to get some road fitness.

Also just googled the girl I rode with today and apparently she was on the rock racing team in 2008 smiley

What does your training week look like right now? How many hours are you putting in on the bike?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 01/26/2011 - 17:47
aerobear
aerobear's picture

halbritt wrote:
aerobear wrote:
Actually got my 3+ hour wednesday ride in for the second week in a row. Maybe slowly starting to get some road fitness.

Also just googled the girl I rode with today and apparently she was on the rock racing team in 2008 smiley

What does your training week look like right now? How many hours are you putting in on the bike?

Scheduled:

Sunday 3-4 hours group ride
Mon 2 hours easy
Tues Intervals
Wed 3-4 hours
Thurs Intervals
Fri 2-3 hours w/ difficult climbs
Sat 2 hours Easy/moderate group ride - will be crit practice every other week from here on out

So scheduled I have 12-15 hours+ intervals. Last week I got in about 11 hours riding in + my intervals

Oh yeah here's my actual ride:
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/65274909

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Wed, 01/26/2011 - 17:56
halbritt
halbritt's picture

You have a coach that prescribed this weekly training plan?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 01/26/2011 - 18:30
tjayk
tjayk's picture

aerobear wrote:
Actually got my 3+ hour wednesday ride in for the second week in a row. Maybe slowly starting to get some road fitness.

Also just googled the girl I rode with today and apparently she was on the rock racing team in 2008 smiley

omg was it the hot blonde!!?!? the rock racing lady that was in wisconsin for superweek that year was like a real life lara croft with believable boobs.

Wed, 01/26/2011 - 20:22
tjayk
tjayk's picture

this girl?

Wed, 01/26/2011 - 20:26
aerobear
aerobear's picture

halbritt wrote:
You have a coach that prescribed this weekly training plan?

.. why?

tjayk wrote:
aerobear wrote:
Actually got my 3+ hour wednesday ride in for the second week in a row. Maybe slowly starting to get some road fitness.

Also just googled the girl I rode with today and apparently she was on the rock racing team in 2008 smiley

omg was it the hot blonde!!?!? the rock racing lady that was in wisconsin for superweek that year was like a real life lara croft with believable boobs.

Nope.. this chick:

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Wed, 01/26/2011 - 20:50
Ashes Dust
Ashes Dust's picture

aerobear wrote:
Nope.. this chick:

Dude on the left is ripped.

LOL. Stay right there. Imma go put some cones out. - Heath
edit2: dont GIS, i did, dont. NSFW - Miguel

Wed, 01/26/2011 - 22:19
tjayk
tjayk's picture

lulz. she's fine too... i have a feeling that may have been a requirement for the female RR squad.

sup?

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 00:01
halbritt
halbritt's picture

aerobear wrote:
halbritt wrote:
You have a coach that prescribed this weekly training plan?

.. why?

Just wondering if you have an annual training plan. Seems early to be doing intervals.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 00:27
aerobear
aerobear's picture

halbritt wrote:
aerobear wrote:
halbritt wrote:
You have a coach that prescribed this weekly training plan?

.. why?

Just wondering if you have an annual training plan. Seems early to be doing intervals.

My first RR this year is Feb 19th. First crit is March 19th.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 01:12
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Yeah but Abers has you guys generally doing intervals in some form or another for the bulk part of the year, eh?

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 13:36
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Nothing wrong with a 2x20, but a bunch of 6x5s might be deleterious this early in the season.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 14:03
yeaux
yeaux's picture

halbritt wrote:
Nothing wrong with a 2x20, but a bunch of 6x5s might be deleterious this early in the season.

Earlier in the thread you said I should be doing 6x5's this early - what changed?

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 14:30
aerobear
aerobear's picture

halbritt wrote:
Nothing wrong with a 2x20, but a bunch of 6x5s might be deleterious this early in the season.

We do intervals most of the year except sep-oct-nov. Sep we're doing much more specific stuff leading up to nationals.. October we pretty much get off after nationals, and in november it was just 40 mins on the rollers before our workouts instead of intervals.

We were doing 10 TT intervals in december and taking it pretty easy, but mostly we have been working on leg speed maintenance (low gear 4 min @ 120rpms). Today I'm doing small gear 20s max cadence. Coach decided we all need to add 10 rpms to our average cadence this winter to see what happens.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 15:13

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