THE TRAINING SUPERTHREAD, feat. HALBRITT

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CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

i dunno what happened but i lost a lot of power on my last power test.

part of it was probably due to taking methylphenidate that day. I think that a stimulant like that used for studying would probably help out on a power test also, but it seemed to make me unable to sustain constant power. it felt like shit and i felt better at the end of the evening when it had totally worn off.

down from 288 watt 6 min power to 245'ish.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:40
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Yo Heath, I read the article before. He's arguing against periodization in beginners, but I'm not a beginner... this'll be my 3rd or so winter lifting.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:03
Freestyler Faixee
Freestyler Faixee's picture

white folks wrote:
wow the author has an unfortunate name

chad butts

bummer

HAahaha

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:32
TimArchyLime
TimArchyLime's picture

Alright Heath, I'm going to get into training. I'm even getting a HRM early next year.

I probably won't be doing any serious strength training soon unless I can find a good, cheap gym near me. I want to focus on getting more riding time in and due to my location and job, riding outside on weekdays is going to be difficult. So I'm looking for a trainer and some trainer workouts. I'm really good at getting into a routine if it doesn't overtax me. In the last few months I've been getting home and going through a 20min pilates workout before doing anything else. I'm hoping that I will be able to do something similar with a ~45min trainer workout on most days.

What are some good videos to look out for? I know a lot of people just turn on the TV, but I feel like I need something more focused. I've done the TV thing before and I never feel like I'm pushing myself as hard or for as long as I should. I really like the look of the sufferfest videos. Anyone used them? Doesn't seem like a bad investment at $11 each.

Snarky Varking wrote:
Tarckbike- Where mile 11 means you're on a long ride.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:10
halbritt
halbritt's picture

AndreBear wrote:
Yo Heath, I read the article before. He's arguing against periodization in beginners, but I'm not a beginner... this'll be my 3rd or so winter lifting.

In this case a "beginner" is someone that squats less than 300-350 pounds. Your plan sounds pretty good, especially for a sprinter. For someone more concerned about road racing, I'd suggest laying off the weights earlier.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:26
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Hmm. At my best I could get 305lb. w/ 4-5 reps, 170lb. body weight. Trying to get back up and beyond this winter because my sprint was awzum the ensuing season afterward when I was squatting that.

Anyway thanks for the approval on the plan.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:30
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

my winter training plan

smoke weed

play guitar

lift some

ride when i can find a riding partner (*looks at iver)

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 20:23
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Ha. I remember like two months ago you had this talk about doing 20+ hours a week...

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 20:29
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

and was pretty close to that before the autumn actually showed up

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 20:35
tjayk
tjayk's picture

AndreBear wrote:
Ha. I remember like two months ago you had this talk about doing 20+ hours a week...

i seem to recall a mention of superman...

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 20:45
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Greek gods were also being referenced heavily...

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 21:00
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

I really want to break into 3 plates this winter.

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 12:50
crabbi
crabbi's picture

This thread makes me feel bad. I've been lazy these last few weeks. Hoping to get back into my routine soon.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
if you're here, you probably fucked up somewhere along the line.

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 14:10
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

rabbi wrote:
This thread makes me feel bad. I've been lazy these last few weeks. Hoping to get back into my routine soon.

No, it's okay, I'm pretty sure I'm the laziest person in this thread.

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 14:15
halbritt
halbritt's picture

octopus magic wrote:
I really want to break into 3 plates this winter.

Try alternating squats and deads on M/W/F. One week you squat twice, the next you deadlift twice. Do 3x5 work sets with a few warm-up sets. For warm-up, try a couple sets of 5 with a light weight then a couple sets of 2 or 3 while working up to your work weight. Rest 3-5 minutes between your work sets. Start with a moderate weight, something that's heavy, but something you can finish with ease, then add 10-20 pounds per workout until you start to struggle. Then settle in and try to add 5 pounds to the bar every workout. Eat lots of protein and get plenty of sleep.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 19:14
turpencat
turpencat's picture

white folks wrote:
my winter training plan

smoke weed

play guitar

lift some

ride when i can find a riding partner (*looks at iver)

move to ohio i'll ride witch you.

johnnyraja wrote:
If you've never done it then yes, it's very surprising.

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 20:28
toddistic
toddistic's picture

halbritt wrote:
octopus magic wrote:
I really want to break into 3 plates this winter.

Try alternating squats and deads on M/W/F. One week you squat twice, the next you deadlift twice. Do 3x5 work sets with a few warm-up sets. For warm-up, try a couple sets of 5 with a light weight then a couple sets of 2 or 3 while working up to your work weight. Rest 3-5 minutes between your work sets. Start with a moderate weight, something that's heavy, but something you can finish with ease, then add 10-20 pounds per workout until you start to struggle. Then settle in and try to add 5 pounds to the bar every workout. Eat lots of protein and get plenty of sleep.

squat everyday - alternate your deadlifts with back extensions.

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 22:01
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

I played around with dead lifts tonight and I think I have a herniated belly button :( Squats don't seem to bother it but DL's do. :(

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 22:09
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Heath, what's the philosophy behind alternating squats with deads and doing legs 3x/weekly? I'm all ears.

Also, are lunges or leg presses an acceptable sub for deads? Deads be doin' strange things to my back but my form probably ain't stellar. Haven't done them in a long time, anyway.

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 22:30
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Deadlifts recruit the quads, but really aren't a quad exercise. They'll strengthen your hamstrings, glutes, and lower back and improve your core stability which aids in preserving squat form. 3x weekly is intended to give enough time for recovery with room left for some riding. If you're healthy and not cycling with too much volume, you should be able to sustain the load if you're eating enough.

There really isn't any good substitute for deadlifts. It's an awesome exercise, especially for cycling. If your form ain't great, start light and work up to something heavy.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 12/14/2010 - 01:14
wickedwagon
wickedwagon's picture

octopus magic wrote:
rabbi wrote:
This thread makes me feel bad. I've been lazy these last few weeks. Hoping to get back into my routine soon.

No, it's okay, I'm pretty sure I'm the laziest person in this thread.

it's gonna close. i haven't done any structured workouts since september

jordanpattern wrote:
BRING ME THE BINDERS OF WOMEN!

Tue, 12/14/2010 - 01:58
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Heath, I'm interested to know what benefit you'd say hypertrophy training in the weight room has for cyclists, if any.

Considering starting my strength phase in the gym (3x5's) a little early.

Tue, 12/21/2010 - 21:30
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

I'm going to try that dead lift / squat three day a week collabo.. those are the main reasons I go to the gym anyways. (might throw in a chest/shoulders day in for fun.)

Wed, 12/22/2010 - 10:48
halbritt
halbritt's picture

AndreBear wrote:
Heath, I'm interested to know what benefit you'd say hypertrophy training in the weight room has for cyclists, if any.

Considering starting my strength phase in the gym (3x5's) a little early.

Start your strength phase as early as you can and make gains as long as you can. Once you start really putting in base miles, is going to be hard to make gains. As for hypertrophy training, read this:

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/nonfunctionalmyth.html

I generally agree with that whole article. The section "bang for the buck" describes why sets of five are optimal. He says 6-8 reps at 80-85% of 1RM, but that's too close to failure imho. The most you can do for five reps across is generally going to guarantee 100% recruitment which is needed to provide the most effective training stimulus.

Glycogen storage could arguably be beneficial for cycling, but then again, cycling does a better job at stimulating every kind of training adaptation you might desire aside from muscular hypertrophy. I've also read reputable sources that suggest that muscular hypertrophy is undesirable for optimal cycling performance, which it may be at the very top levels of road racing. However, for track, weight training is pretty much considered mandatory to be successful.

In any case, since our desire is to increase force production and stimulate (functional) hypertrophy, the program I described should provide the most benefit and still yield some remaining "recovery bandwidth" for some base miles.

Finally, I mentioned this in the fitness thread, for those that can do 'em, power cleans will increase rate of force production, which is desirable as well. I'd suggest adding those in as warm-ups to heavy deadlifts.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 12/24/2010 - 23:42
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Word. Interesting article Heath, just read it. Right now I'm following this program (at least for squats), so I'm at 8 reps for the next 2 weeks: http://www.training4cyclists.com/12-week-strength-program-for-cyclists/.

As far as most of the coaches I've read, it seems like the general recommendation for combining weights and base training is to do them on the same days in a week, with rest/easy spin days occurring a day later, and to follow gym in the morning with riding right after. Did that yesterday, so far so good on my legs but I wonder if not sitting down to eat a full meal after the gym/before hitting the spencer (just had protein shake + yogurt) would limit gains/recovery.

Either way, the goal is 3 plates, 5 reps squatting. If I can get to that, I think I'll have a good season of sprinting ahead. Hit 2 plates/10 reps yesterday.

Sat, 12/25/2010 - 00:33
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Couple things about that program: Leg curls and presses are pointless at best and potentially dangerous at worst, but I doubt you're doing those. Bench press would be entirely optional and that's a hell of a lot of volume with squats and deads on the same day. Other than that, there's no way to gauge incremental gains by doing a varying number of reps every week.

Would recommend sets of five across adding 10 pounds per workout until that starts to get hard. Following that, throw on five pounds per workout. If you're having difficulty finishing those sets, then you need to eat more.

Once you start getting close to three plates, your progress might slow down and you may need to consider a more complicated periodization scheme.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sat, 12/25/2010 - 02:07
toddistic
toddistic's picture

halbritt wrote:
Couple things about that program: Leg curls and presses are pointless at best and potentially dangerous at worst, but I doubt you're doing those. Bench press would be entirely optional and that's a hell of a lot of volume with squats and deads on the same day. Other than that, there's no way to gauge incremental gains by doing a varying number of reps every week.

Would recommend sets of five across adding 10 pounds per workout until that starts to get hard. Following that, throw on five pounds per workout. If you're having difficulty finishing those sets, then you need to eat more.

Once you start getting close to three plates, your progress might slow down and you may need to consider a more complicated periodization scheme.

so basically rippetoe.

Sun, 12/26/2010 - 21:12
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Yeah. Can you tell what I've been reading lately?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 12/26/2010 - 23:45
aerobear
aerobear's picture

So just got a garmin edge 500..

Going to start uploading my data and such so I can set the HR zones.

Here is my first ride: http://connect.garmin.com/activity/60744055

Felt pretty shitty today and it was just cold enough to make it suck balls once it really started raining.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Mon, 12/27/2010 - 00:19
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

dammit i want a garmin

:( i totally dont need one

Mon, 12/27/2010 - 14:10
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Fo' real. Would be even more stoked to have one with GPS so I didn't have to think about all those turns I gotta make when new routes.

Mon, 12/27/2010 - 15:10
aerobear
aerobear's picture

Yeah - brent has never used the upload a route feature. It looks like it lacks detail but gives enough of a map to know if you go the wrong way.

I'm pretty excited regardless. Plus ANT+ just incase i randomly decide I need a powertap. (Brent seems to think he needs not one, but two)

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Mon, 12/27/2010 - 17:24
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture

aerobear wrote:
Yeah - brent has never used the upload a route feature. It looks like it lacks detail but gives enough of a map to know if you go the wrong way.

I'm pretty excited regardless. Plus ANT+ just incase i randomly decide I need a powertap. (Brent seems to think he needs not one, but two)

I'm beginning to love the upload feature. Use RideWithGPS.com to map out route, download TCX file, place TCX file in the Courses folder on the 500. Real easy to start course from there. Works great so far. Have been exploring roads and climbs in neighborhoods I've never been to before.

Mon, 12/27/2010 - 17:57
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

this probably belongs in the DQ thread but

whats the functional difference between an 305 and 500? if its just cadence im gettin one

Mon, 12/27/2010 - 18:33
aerobear
aerobear's picture

white folks wrote:
this probably belongs in the DQ thread but

whats the functional difference between an 305 and 500? if its just cadence im gettin one

i was wondering this also. it appears to be only a couple of minor things. both do cadence and HR. you can use the garmin site to compare and see teh run down of all the features.

garmin 500 is actually cheaper if you jsut get the computer and buy the other stuff separate ($30 for HR strap, $30 for cadence sensor on ebay)

500 can do power if you have a power meter. it also has a longer battery life and is smaller. but the screens are the same size on both. 500 can remember more rides too I think.

there's a couple of small things the 305 does that the 500 doesnt, but overall they seem really really similar.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Mon, 12/27/2010 - 18:41
halbritt
halbritt's picture

305 will do power as well, but the 500 has a few power-related features that are important. Don't recall what they are, though.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 12/28/2010 - 18:50
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

weird that the 305 is more $$$

Tue, 12/28/2010 - 21:03
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

Finally sat down on the trainer today for endurance miles and wooooooooo 200 watts for an hour is boring as shiiiiit.

I need more time in the day. :\

Tue, 12/28/2010 - 21:09
aerobear
aerobear's picture

Heath - the garmin site says the 305 does not record power data.

white folks wrote:
weird that the 305 is more $$$

looks like theyre about the same price to me.
the 500 is $250 without the cadence and HR strap.

all i've concluded is that the 305 is more sport/fitness oriented while the 500 is more race-oriented.

crowding wrote:
Every time i eat Dick's I just wind up disappointed that I'm not getting In-n-Out.

Tue, 12/28/2010 - 22:42
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Thinking of the 310. In any case, the "forerunner" products are for triathletes and runners.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 12/29/2010 - 01:07
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture

Heads up...

Firmware 2.60 released for Garmin 500 this morning.

Changelog:

Changes from version 2.40 to version 2.60:
Improved course performance and corrected an issue that could cause some courses to stop processing.
Added a torque reading to the calibration page for PowerTap power meters.
Improved Auto Pause behavior.
Improved auto wheel calibration especially for PowerTap power meters.
Improved correlation of speed sensor data and GPS data.
Totals can now be cleared.
Corrected an issue that could prevent an Activity from being reset.
Prevent an incorrect date/time from being displayed.
Improved battery gauge readings.
Removed DeleteFiles folder.

Wed, 12/29/2010 - 15:04
halbritt
halbritt's picture

ryanoceros wrote:
Improved correlation of speed sensor data and GPS data.

This is nice. Pretty sure I can't pedal 60mph.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 12/29/2010 - 17:17
rhys
rhys's picture

I have a forerunner 205 and it's pretty basic. No HRM or anything like that. Definitely more tri focused. I only put it in my jersey pocket if I'm riding a spencer without a computer to get average speed.

I'm going to read this thrad from start to finish in the hopes of getting some good tips. Heath, sure I speak for all of us when I say thanks for the time you've put in here.
Maybe we could update one of the first posts with a glossary of acronyms and a basic meaning for each tho? I dumb.

Sun, 01/09/2011 - 19:27
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Crashed on a road ride Saturday, hurt my hand/wrist but rode home fine and have been riding since. Saw the doc today, 'just in case', got x-rays and found out I broke my hand. Weights are out of the question now but I can ride, just no crashing, so gonna hit the trainer a lot.

Heath, what can you tell me about 'weight training on the spencer' type workouts, i.e., low RPM / big gear stuff? I want to continue building leg strength for the sprint.

Wed, 01/12/2011 - 22:54
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

ooof. Be careful with your hand. You really don't wanna fuck up the bones in there.

When I broke both my hand and wrist after getting hit, I just didn't even ride. :(

Wed, 01/12/2011 - 22:59
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Yeah, the 5 days I went riding with it broken probably weren't good... it's set in a hard splint now though, and I can grip my brake hood with two fingers but torque is out of the question.

Wed, 01/12/2011 - 23:28
halbritt
halbritt's picture

AndreBear wrote:
Heath, what can you tell me about 'weight training on the spencer' type workouts, i.e., low RPM / big gear stuff? I want to continue building leg strength for the sprint.

Doesn't work. I'd recommend doing anaerobic intervals (10x1s) and NM intervals (10-15s all out).

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 01/13/2011 - 00:48
yeaux
yeaux's picture

halbritt wrote:
AndreBear wrote:
Heath, what can you tell me about 'weight training on the spencer' type workouts, i.e., low RPM / big gear stuff? I want to continue building leg strength for the sprint.

Doesn't work. I'd recommend doing anaerobic intervals (10x1s) and NM intervals (10-15s all out).

Are you saying those type of workouts on the trainer are no good at all, or that they are no good for working toward the sprint?

What would you recommend on the trainer for helping with hill climbs?

Thu, 01/13/2011 - 09:44
halbritt
halbritt's picture

'Weight training on the spencer' does not induce hypertrophy. The only thing it'd really do if you did enough of it is increase one's power at a really low cadence. Could also damage the knees. They are no good for the sprint.

For the sprint, it depends on whether you're talking about track or road sprinting as the cadence is going to vary and the law of specificity still applies. 10-15s all out at the desired cadence with a 10 minute rest is the RX for that. There's other cool shit you can do like motor pace up to 30mph, then hit the wind and try to get up to 40mph.

yeaux wrote:
What would you recommend on the trainer for helping with hill climbs?

How long are these hills? Are you trying to drop someone on these hills? How well-adapted are you? Most cyclists would benefit from a greater FTP, so do 2x20 intervals. If you're already well-adapted, do some VO2Max intervals, i.e. 6x5.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 01/13/2011 - 15:05
yeaux
yeaux's picture

halbritt wrote:
How long are these hills? Are you trying to drop someone on these hills? How well-adapted are you? Most cyclists would benefit from a greater FTP, so do 2x20 intervals. If you're already well-adapted, do some VO2Max intervals, i.e. 6x5.

I'm in lower Michigan, so the biggest hills are about a 2-5 minute climb at most. The grades aren't too steep generally. However, I always got dropped on them last season so I know they're a big limiter for me. The people who win races with even one hill around here are are the ones who can attack on them and make their break stick. So yes, I will be trying to drop people on the hills now.

I've been working on increasing my FTP since November (started getting back on the spencer in September with zone 2 rides and speed skilss due to a bad crash in August where I needed to take about a month off the spencer). Since November, my weeks have been looking like this:

1 day SST 90-120 minutes
1-2 days day Tempo riding 120-150 minutes
1 day 2x20
1 day gym (back/abs, squats, etc.)
1 day sprint/tabata intervals (2-3 sets of 8x20s on w/ 10s rest)
1-2 day rest

I was planning on doing more HIT closer to my first A race (in May). I want to do well in an early season race at the end of March though, so I will be cutting the gym out of my training next week and shifting to more 2x20/SST riding.

I guess the main reason I asked about hill-specific intervals is because a lot of the others on the team do them, but can't tell me specifically why. They cite specificity in training, which I can understand why they think that, but I still don't completely grasp why they help, if they do at all. Would you recommend doing some lower cadence/big gear work within a tempo ride (like a fartlek) or just keep trying to boost FTP? Thanks.

Thu, 01/13/2011 - 15:37

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