THE TRAINING SUPERTHREAD, feat. HALBRITT

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biek

Man, reading this thread, most of which I don't understand, it sounds like halbritt would make a good cycling coach.

edit: I would like to ride with a powertap or similar power-metering setup, just so I could see how weak a rider I am. Also numbers & data are cool.

pappaheugwang wrote:
u mad bro?

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 01:20
Matthew Trujillo

i still dont understand why people dont think a powertap is a great training tool. its like a car without gauges, or a weight loss plan without a scale or any measuring instruments

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 01:16
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

CheshireCat wrote:
I'll train on tubies if I have to. I really dont care, the problem is that I like to ride trails as well. Considering a cheap wired powertap for the MTB since weight is less concern, or just using the HRM. I hate racing both road and XC since none of the gear is shared.
At least on clinchers I can swap out for some cross clinchers and do lighter trail duty on the CX spencer.

Do clinchers on your "first" PT because you'll wanna use it on the trainer.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 01:24
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

-s wrote:
i still dont understand why people dont think a powertap is a great training tool. its like a car without gauges, or a weight loss plan without a scale or any measuring instruments

Retro-grouchery, (pseudo)-elitism, delusion, ignorance. Pick one.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 02:54
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

bradencbc wrote:
y wrote:
i don't think measuring power is very important.

most people just don't ride enough to benefit from it.

There is some truth to this. Next to ceramic bearings power meters have to be the biggest scam pulled on the average club racer. It's been my experience when you look at the fast end of the local talent you get plenty of guys who don't ever train with a power meter.

Let's be honest Braden. I think we both know the type of slow amateur club racer that buys a PM and won't benefit from it at all is going to be nearly impossible to talk out of buying one anyway, therefore no one's really getting 'scammed'. Same idea as the fat roadie who slaves away to get his spencer down to 15lb, but won't lose any actual body weight of his own - they're bent on doing it and beyond being reasoned with.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 03:08
shiftGNAR
shiftGNAR's picture

Dumb question:

If I buy something like http://cgi.ebay.com/2010-CycleOps-Power-Powertap-Comp-32H-Shimano-/380269895762?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5889da2052 could I lace this to a 24 hole rim or do you have to match it to a 32H rim? Was thinking about getting this and lacing to some ebay crabon rims.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 07:50
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

Halbritt wrote:

I don't see many people winning in pro/1/2 fields without one.\

Really?

I see that on the regular here.

I'm not saying that in the right hands a wattage meter is not a great tool. I'm just saying that's it's certainly not indispensable either.

National champ and Virginia based rider Ben King not once rode with a power meter until he joined trek livestrong. His father and uncle who are both accomplished cat 1's taught him to train the old fashioned way. They both are retro grouches I guess. Dan (the uncle) wins about 75% of the races he shows up to (1,2 and masters fields) and has never ridden with a power meter in his life.

Halbritt wrote:
If one of these "slaves to the power meter" can't bridge, then he's doing something wrong, because that's precisely the kind of shortcoming a power meter excels as exposing.

This guy did place 5th in the TT at nationals in the 35-39 so let's clarify this guy is not suffering from any physical shortcomings on the spencer. But the guy lets the numbers on his SRM take him out of the race sometimes. In my opinion (yeah this is totally anecdotal) a powermeter is just as likely to bring out mental weakness as it is to improve physical prowess.

Of the locals who rip it up the most there is the one that does train with a power meter and who also just happens to be my partner at the spencer shop so I often grill about insights into training. He's be racing for about 20 years and has been a cat 1 pretty much the whole time. For certain parts of the year he is 100% dedicated to training with power but never advocates racing with it. When he starts to get into peak fitness the computer usually comes off the spencer. For him personally the power meter is great for doing those terrible 5, 10, and 20 minute intervals but the truly soul crushing workouts he does that simulates the intensity of crit racing (1 on 1 off stuff mostly) is 100% based on perceived effort.

All my bullshit aside, I do think there is a middle ground on this where most people fall.

What was my point again? Oh yeah... I'm not saying training with power is not A way to train. It's just not THE ONLY way to train. However, since this is the wattage thread I'll respectfully shut the hell up now.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 08:34
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

if you're not training with wattage, you'd better be training with heart rate. there needs to be some form of metrics to expose weaknesses in technique. Sure, a lot of people can do well without it, however when you live in a very competitive area (Boulder, CO, all of California, Boston, etc) being able to use metrics to judge where to place the lump of training stress is very effective.

Still a lot of riders will choose to use heart rate instead and that can work well since you can devise training plans around heart rate alone.

Still, more information is better, and a powermeter, when coupled with an HRM, will tell you if your body is getting stronger, or if you are overtraining it more effectively.

Most of us have limited time on the spencer and would like to make those few hours that we have count as much as possible towards race day performance.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 10:39
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Halbritt wrote:

AndreBear wrote:
Really wish I had a PM so I could do SST all accurately and shit...

I really, really like tempo rides. Favorite 'training ride' to do, really.

Borrow a power meter, use it to calibrate PE, then do your SST rides. If you can't hook something up locally, I'll ship you mine for a week with the caveat that you'd have to follow the testing protocol that I suggest.

Talked to amigo with PM, who suggested instead riding on a CompuTrainer w/ power and HRM and whatever fancy software is on there, and making calculations based on that.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 12:42
smash
smash's picture

CheshireCat, it sounds like we're in the same boat in terms of fitness profile. I've got an FTP of 250, which puts my W/kg at 3's level according to the Coggan book. But that doesn't help me much because I'm still off the back at the local 4/5 crits.

I think my major limiters are actually not wattage-related. Sure, my 1min and 5min power could be better and I probably need to up my VO2 max, but I think I have bigger fish to fry: I need to get more confident in corners with a pack, I need to hold wheels better and I need to address core strength and flexibility issues (I noticed my upper body rocking a lot when I did some video of me on a trainer).

So I guess my point is that skills work should not be underestimated, at least for racing newbs.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 13:33
halbritt
halbritt's picture

AndreBear wrote:
Halbritt wrote:

AndreBear wrote:
Really wish I had a PM so I could do SST all accurately and shit...

I really, really like tempo rides. Favorite 'training ride' to do, really.

Borrow a power meter, use it to calibrate PE, then do your SST rides. If you can't hook something up locally, I'll ship you mine for a week with the caveat that you'd have to follow the testing protocol that I suggest.

Talked to amigo with PM, who suggested instead riding on a CompuTrainer w/ power and HRM and whatever fancy software is on there, and making calculations based on that.

Who's advice are you going to take, your friend, who you know and trust, or some random asshole on the Internet?

I'm still going to suggest you do your testing on your spencer with a powertap, I'll get to why in a bit.

Regarding HR: There's a lot of really knowledgeable folks in the world that will tell you that HR training for cycling is kinda bogus. I'd rather not argue the point, but I do want to suggest that is the prevailing attitude among people that I respect. Friel would disagree, but most others would not. Check out racing footage from the past year of guys that climb with their jerseys open. A lot of them have HRM straps on, but quite a few don't, which was not the case a few years ago. Every one of 'em has a power meter, though.

Braden, your friend that doesn't race with power, I don't get that. Of course a PM won't win races, but it can help. Racing with power is a skill that can be acquired just like any other. Sometimes you have to put your head down and take a dig with everything you have to catch on or bridge, but other times you're off the front or on a climb alone and you need to save your legs. A PM can help with pacing. Finally, having the data available to do retrospective analysis and account for training stress is crucial. I'm not in the business of coaching, but if I were, I wouldn't coach someone that didn't train and race with a power meter. In any case, if you don't want to stare at the computer, just put it in your jersey pocket.

Andre, a computrainer is cool, but it will fall short in a lot of ways. My goal is to have you calibrate your perceived effort against your fitness level so that you can do SST rides through the winter to build a solid base. I assume you won't be training on the computrainer and as such, calibrating your perceived effort on it does little good. Trainers just aren't the same as road riding. Some people have difficulty producing the same amount of power on a trainer, mainly due to heat and ventilation. Other folks generate even more power on a trainer, thanks to the extraordinarily steady state effort.

I'd like to see you figure out what your FTP is on your spencer on the roads where you normally ride, then I'd like to see you do a couple of rides at a prescribed power level to get a sense of what it feels like.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 13:59
halbritt
halbritt's picture

smash wrote:
CheshireCat, it sounds like we're in the same boat in terms of fitness profile. I've got an FTP of 250, which puts my W/kg at 3's level according to the Coggan book. But that doesn't help me much because I'm still off the back at the local 4/5 crits.

I think my major limiters are actually not wattage-related. Sure, my 1min and 5min power could be better and I probably need to up my VO2 max, but I think I have bigger fish to fry: I need to get more confident in corners with a pack, I need to hold wheels better and I need to address core strength and flexibility issues (I noticed my upper body rocking a lot when I did some video of me on a trainer).

So I guess my point is that skills work should not be underestimated, at least for racing newbs.

Going to double for this one because damn that last thing was long.

You're at ~150Lbs or so? The power profile chart in Coggan's book isn't exactly accurate and 250w FTP doesn't really represent a whole lot of adaptation for a medium sized male. If you're having trouble staying in the winning move or being first up a short climb, then I'd say that you need to work on VO2Max, but if you're off the back, then you need to work on FTP, especially if your races aren't that hilly. 3.5W/kg is ok in hilly conditions, but for a flat races, it's W/CdA (drag, related to frontal area) that matter most.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 14:06
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

Halbritt wrote:

Braden, your friend that doesn't race with power, I don't get that. Of course a PM won't win races, but it can help. Racing with power is a skill that can be acquired just like any other. Sometimes you have to put your head down and take a dig with everything you have to catch on or bridge, but other times you're off the front or on a climb alone and you need to save your legs. A PM can help with pacing. Finally, having the data available to do retrospective analysis and account for training stress is crucial. I'm not in the business of coaching, but if I were, I wouldn't coach someone that didn't train and race with a power meter. In any case, if you don't want to stare at the computer, just put it in your jersey pocket.

I know this sounds crazy in this age of powetaps and coaches but some guys just rely on experience and have a really good grasp on what their body is doing. I have gone on rides with my partners (one with a power meter and one without) and Tim (the cat 1 without the meter) could guess within 20 watts what we were doing at any given time.

You are 100% right about it's value as tool for pacing and I would put my money on the guy with the SRM over the guy without in anything over a 20k in a TT. Crit racing is totally different story and I'll back the cagey bastard who wants to make other people bleed from their eyeballs over the guy who knows exactly how many watts he can hold to bridge. "Do, or do not. There is no try."

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 20:34
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

I mean, I agree as well; too often some people will get completely lost in the numbers without realizing how much of a mental aspect there is to racing. But at the same time, power still beats no power on a purely objective basis, and it's a great tool to take your training to the next level if you can justify the costs.

Halbritt, for me it's not about trusting a friend vs. someone on the internet as much as it is about the underlying logic to your guys' ideas. You're both basically suggesting different things, him saying evaluate a power vs. HR relationship, figure out an SST heart rate and train from there with an HRM, you saying pretty much the same but replace HR with PE.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 21:36
y
y's picture

bradencbc wrote:
I know this sounds crazy in this age of powetaps and coaches but some guys just rely on experience and have a really good grasp on what their body is doing.

this warrants repeating. the guys who win races are usually the guys who "get it".

CheshireCat wrote:
Most of us have limited time on the spencer and would like to make those few hours that we have count as much as possible towards race day performance.

people who don't ride much benefit from training a)more and b)harder, plus they don't need to worry about overtraining. i'm riding cat2 next year and am still in this situation.

i'll get a pm when i can ride 30 hours a week.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 22:44
smash
smash's picture

Halbritt wrote:
smash wrote:
CheshireCat, it sounds like we're in the same boat in terms of fitness profile. I've got an FTP of 250, which puts my W/kg at 3's level according to the Coggan book. But that doesn't help me much because I'm still off the back at the local 4/5 crits.

I think my major limiters are actually not wattage-related. Sure, my 1min and 5min power could be better and I probably need to up my VO2 max, but I think I have bigger fish to fry: I need to get more confident in corners with a pack, I need to hold wheels better and I need to address core strength and flexibility issues (I noticed my upper body rocking a lot when I did some video of me on a trainer).

So I guess my point is that skills work should not be underestimated, at least for racing newbs.

Going to double for this one because damn that last thing was long.

You're at ~150Lbs or so? The power profile chart in Coggan's book isn't exactly accurate and 250w FTP doesn't really represent a whole lot of adaptation for a medium sized male. If you're having trouble staying in the winning move or being first up a short climb, then I'd say that you need to work on VO2Max, but if you're off the back, then you need to work on FTP, especially if your races aren't that hilly. 3.5W/kg is ok in hilly conditions, but for a flat races, it's W/CdA (drag, related to frontal area) that matter most.

Off the back, there are a couple crits with significant hills but most are fairly flat. And yea, I fluctuate between 155 and 160 or so. My priorities for fall are endurance (base miles), threshold/FTP work (2x20s, SST stuff) and skills work, with core strength and flexibility thrown in there too. So I think my plan jives with fixing what you noted. I'm staying away from any major anaerobic stuff for now because I burn out really quickly whenever I try to include it.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 22:52
halbritt
halbritt's picture

y wrote:
this warrants repeating. the guys who win races are usually the guys who "get it".

...and have the fitness necessary to do so. Training with a PM is one way to gain that fitness, but so is riding lots. I'm going to continue to agree with you and Braden in that a power meter is not absolutely necessary. It just removes a lot of the uncertainty if used correctly.

AndreBear wrote:
Halbritt, for me it's not about trusting a friend vs. someone on the internet as much as it is about the underlying logic to your guys' ideas. You're both basically suggesting different things, him saying evaluate a power vs. HR relationship, figure out an SST heart rate and train from there with an HRM, you saying pretty much the same but replace HR with PE.

You might've missed the sarcasm. Obviously, you're going to trust the advice that makes the most sense to you regardless of where it came from. What your friend is suggesting is a valid approach, but I would argue that PE is more useful than HR.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 10/13/2010 - 00:51
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture

Putting in around 10K miles a year for the past three years I guess I fall into the category of riding enough to benefit from power meter. Once they're as standard as a heart rate strap with a spencer computer, I might give it a try.

Right now? Meh. We'll see what Garmin does with the Metrigear tech. That shit looks pretty cool.

This thread still catches my interest, spencer-geek-wise.

Wed, 10/13/2010 - 10:23
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Halbritt - Do you generally follow the training approach as outlined by Friel in the Cyclist's Training Bible, or do you follow a different training approach?

Wed, 10/13/2010 - 14:44
Sandbagbear
Sandbagbear's picture

This thread made me miss training for a couple minutes. Back to work.

Wed, 10/13/2010 - 17:02
halbritt
halbritt's picture

yeaux wrote:
Halbritt - Do you generally follow the training approach as outlined by Friel in the Cyclist's Training Bible, or do you follow a different training approach?

Friel defines periodization which is essential to winning races at the top level, but the methodology that he describes doesn't benefit from the use of the power meter and the performance manager. Here you go:

  • Prep
  • Base
  • Build
  • Peak
  • Race
  • Transition

Prep is going to be things like weight training or whatever. Base is the traditional LSD, but really should be FTP work. Most pros race at their genetic limit for FTP, which is not something that can be sustained perpetually. The base period is for the purpose of re-establishing that. Build is race-specific fitness. This is where the sprint work, the VO2 intervals and the anaerobic intervals come into play. The rest is all just theory about how to maximize fitness and taper for a race without the use of a power meter or performance manager which does a much better job.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 10/13/2010 - 23:00
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

alright Halbritt, what should I do:

get the prebuilt powertap with the open pro

Or somehow incorporate it with my tubulars. That means I'd be training on tubular reynolds DV46
something about that seems like it might be a bad idea...
but I'm not sure I'd want to race on the powertap x open pro collaboration since right now my spencer is a weenie-approved 16.4 lbs and that's with tektro brakes, gossamer cranks and the crappy stock specialized bars.

Since I already have a set of lightweight carbon tubulars I'm really skeptical about giving them up.
I'd rather give up my ksyrium SLC SL Premiums, but I kind of want to use those in CX.
Should I worry about getting usable data from CX races? seems pointless since the season is so short.

looking for some opinions. I'm a noob to this powertap stuff and unsure of how much weight the whole unit will add.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Thu, 10/14/2010 - 03:43
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Halbritt wrote:
yeaux wrote:
Halbritt - Do you generally follow the training approach as outlined by Friel in the Cyclist's Training Bible, or do you follow a different training approach?

Friel defines periodization which is essential to winning races at the top level, but the methodology that he describes doesn't benefit from the use of the power meter and the performance manager. Here you go:

  • Prep
  • Base
  • Build
  • Peak
  • Race
  • Transition

Prep is going to be things like weight training or whatever. Base is the traditional LSD, but really should be FTP work. Most pros race at their genetic limit for FTP, which is not something that can be sustained perpetually. The base period is for the purpose of re-establishing that. Build is race-specific fitness. This is where the sprint work, the VO2 intervals and the anaerobic intervals come into play. The rest is all just theory about how to maximize fitness and taper for a race without the use of a power meter or performance manager which does a much better job.

Exactly. I have training peaks and used a HRM this past season. My team is doing a group buy on powertaps in about a month. I would still like to use training peaks as I find it useful, but plan on incorporating a PM into it. Do you think it's possibly/useful to combine Friel's method w/ a PM? I can send you a sample itinerary if you need it to better form an opinion. Thanks.

Thu, 10/14/2010 - 08:51
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Also, by replacing base with FTP work, would you suggest riding at tempo mostly?

Thu, 10/14/2010 - 09:45
halbritt
halbritt's picture

CheshireCat wrote:
alright Halbritt, what should I do:

I'm of the opinion that race wheels are rarely necessary. Having a PT for CX is marginally useful. The races are X minutes long and nearly all with an NP somewhere near 90% of FTP so training stress is easy to estimate.

Sorry man, "which PT should I buy" isn't a training question. I say, get the PT/OP setup and start training with it. If you need something else, flip it. If you want to go back and do the w/kg analysis up some climbs and talk about how much the race wheels will help, then I'm game.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 10/14/2010 - 13:37
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Doubling because different topics:

yeaux wrote:
Also, by replacing base with FTP work, would you suggest riding at tempo mostly?

SST which is high L3 (tempo) and low L4. Maybe throw in some 2x20 at threshold too. Typical base week would be 2-3 days of threshold work, 2 days at recovery pace, and one long day with a couple of hours of SST.

yeaux wrote:
Exactly. I have training peaks and used a HRM this past season. My team is doing a group buy on powertaps in about a month. I would still like to use training peaks as I find it useful, but plan on incorporating a PM into it. Do you think it's possibly/useful to combine Friel's method w/ a PM? I can send you a sample itinerary if you need it to better form an opinion. Thanks.

Do you have a coach or are you self-coached? If the latter, then you need to get the Allen/Coggan book and read the chapter on Performance manager, "using power to manage performance".

Assuming you begin using a power meter for all your training, I would do the following: Estimate your starting CTL and ATL when you begin using the PM as such:

Multiply your average weekly hours x 7:
for past 3 weeks gives you an ATL seed value
for past 3 months give you an CTL seed value
e.g. average 8 hours/week for past 3 months - use 7 x 8 = 56.

Then, I'm going to ask you to ramp CTL at around 5 TSS per week until you hit 100 TSS. Typically 100-120TSS is the most training stress a human can endure without popping. That goes for most everyone, pros included. I literally hit a wall around 95TSS. It was odd. I'd been training hard and steadily for four months and then I just couldn't get on the spencer any more.

Anyway, the aforementioned "base week" is a great method for building CTL. Once you hit 100TSS, I'd have you scale back the threshold work to 1 day a week plus SST on your long ride and start doing VO2Max intervals twice a week. You could do this for 4-6 weeks with your CTL dropping the whole time to around 80. Then I'd work on addressing any race-specific fitness concerns again adding in more training stress with a goal of hitting peak CTL a week before your first "A" race. Then it's time to taper, dropping volume, but keeping intensity, with the goal of getting TSB to be trending positive the day of the race.

Easy, eh?

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 10/14/2010 - 13:52
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Cool article on fiber types. Track dudes should have a look:

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/fasttwitchmachine.html

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 10/14/2010 - 19:23
timberland boots
timberland boots's picture

Two questions ; Are 2x20s for building FTP really just as effective as getting on the spencer and riding for long periods at just below threshold? I just doesn't seem right that something so easy should hve much of a fitness benefit.

Also i'm trying to slim up a bit in the winter too (could probably climb faster with 5 pounds less) but want to primarily focus on building my threshold power. Should I do maybe 2x20s twice a week and maybe a long 2 hour ride at moderate effort once a week?

Basically, I have a trainer and time to use it. Want to make sure I'm going about the best way of building my FTP and if possible would like to get a bit leaner

Anal Beads Al-Qaeda Ball Gag NAMBLA

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 09:06
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

Rich wrote:
Two questions ; Are 2x20s for building FTP really just as effective as getting on the spencer and riding for long periods at just below threshold? I just doesn't seem right that something so easy should hve much of a fitness benefit.

2 x 20's are highly effective.. although they shouldnt really be easy.. at least they aren't for me.
I find sst (high tempo/low threshold) a lot easier.. and seem to get decent results from it.

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 10:27
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Halbritt wrote:
Doubling because different topics:

yeaux wrote:
Also, by replacing base with FTP work, would you suggest riding at tempo mostly?

SST which is high L3 (tempo) and low L4. Maybe throw in some 2x20 at threshold too. Typical base week would be 2-3 days of threshold work, 2 days at recovery pace, and one long day with a couple of hours of SST.

Word, I'll probably try that out this off-season.

yeaux wrote:
Exactly. I have training peaks and used a HRM this past season. My team is doing a group buy on powertaps in about a month. I would still like to use training peaks as I find it useful, but plan on incorporating a PM into it. Do you think it's possibly/useful to combine Friel's method w/ a PM? I can send you a sample itinerary if you need it to better form an opinion. Thanks.

Do you have a coach or are you self-coached? If the latter, then you need to get the Allen/Coggan book and read the chapter on Performance manager, "using power to manage performance".

Assuming you begin using a power meter for all your training, I would do the following: Estimate your starting CTL and ATL when you begin using the PM as such:

Multiply your average weekly hours x 7:
for past 3 weeks gives you an ATL seed value
for past 3 months give you an CTL seed value
e.g. average 8 hours/week for past 3 months - use 7 x 8 = 56.

Then, I'm going to ask you to ramp CTL at around 5 TSS per week until you hit 100 TSS. Typically 100-120TSS is the most training stress a human can endure without popping. That goes for most everyone, pros included. I literally hit a wall around 95TSS. It was odd. I'd been training hard and steadily for four months and then I just couldn't get on the spencer any more.

Anyway, the aforementioned "base week" is a great method for building CTL. Once you hit 100TSS, I'd have you scale back the threshold work to 1 day a week plus SST on your long ride and start doing VO2Max intervals twice a week. You could do this for 4-6 weeks with your CTL dropping the whole time to around 80. Then I'd work on addressing any race-specific fitness concerns again adding in more training stress with a goal of hitting peak CTL a week before your first "A" race. Then it's time to taper, dropping volume, but keeping intensity, with the goal of getting TSB to be trending positive the day of the race.

Easy, eh?

I am self-coached. I bought the Coggan book, but haven't had a chance to read it yet. Reading through "Racing Weight" right now because I feel like not being lean is a limiter for me.

I don't quite get what you mean by ramping up to 5 TSS per week until I hit 100 TSS. Could you clarify how I would eventually hit 100 TSS?

Also, is there any real benefit to doing VO2 Max intervals for longer periods, like 5-8 minutes, or splitting it up between 3 minutes w/ shorter recovery time as long as total interval time is the same? I have read differing opinions. My thinking is that if a limiter is not being able to bridge for 5 minutes hard, then the intervals should be about 5 minutes. This sucks for me though because the majority of my training this offseason will be indoors on my trainer due to lack of time in the afternoon and lack of daylight and it's harder for me to lay down the watts on the trainer.

Really appreciating the input. Thanks.

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 10:59
timberland boots
timberland boots's picture

dmotobear wrote:
Rich wrote:
Two questions ; Are 2x20s for building FTP really just as effective as getting on the spencer and riding for long periods at just below threshold? I just doesn't seem right that something so easy should hve much of a fitness benefit.

2 x 20's are highly effective.. although they shouldnt really be easy.. at least they aren't for me.
I find sst (high tempo/low threshold) a lot easier.. and seem to get decent results from it.

Eh, relatively easy I guess. Up until now I've done no structured training I'd just go out and ride as hard as I can for 3-5 hours, so comparatively speaking, it's pretty easy ;)

Sorry for probably DQ, but what is SST? I tried google and all I got was sport specific training, which doesn't tell me much

Anal Beads Al-Qaeda Ball Gag NAMBLA

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 11:22
Ashes Dust
Ashes Dust's picture

Too many acronyms.

LOL. Stay right there. Imma go put some cones out. - Heath
edit2: dont GIS, i did, dont. NSFW - Miguel

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 11:24
yeaux
yeaux's picture

Rich wrote:
dmotobear wrote:
Rich wrote:
Two questions ; Are 2x20s for building FTP really just as effective as getting on the spencer and riding for long periods at just below threshold? I just doesn't seem right that something so easy should hve much of a fitness benefit.

2 x 20's are highly effective.. although they shouldnt really be easy.. at least they aren't for me.
I find sst (high tempo/low threshold) a lot easier.. and seem to get decent results from it.

Eh, relatively easy I guess. Up until now I've done no structured training I'd just go out and ride as hard as I can for 3-5 hours, so comparatively speaking, it's pretty easy ;)

Sorry for probably DQ, but what is SST? I tried google and all I got was sport specific training, which doesn't tell me much

I've heard it called "Sweet Spot Training" before, but not sure if that's actually what it refers to.

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 11:41
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

it is the high tempo / low threshold area.. ie: riding hard, but for more time than you could do threshold.. so go out and ride as hard as you can for 1.5-2 hours..

the area where coggan zones 3/4 meet. and then getting lower into zone 3 the longer the time period.

It is a great TSS maximizer.. which in turn is giving you the most adaptation for a given training time.

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 12:31
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Not going to quote anything, but I'll try to cover all the questions. Hit me again if I miss something.

Riding as hard as you can for 3-4 hours is an intensity level that's way, way below SST. Some folks suggest that SST is "all you can do for a given interval" but Allen, the coach of the Coggan/Allen pair strictly defines SST as 88-90% of FTP. Friel suggests that any work above 75% FTP is going to have a significant benefit. The "sweet spot" as it were is the greatest amount of training stress and potential for adaptation with the least amount of recovery stress. Here's a handy graphic:

2x20s should be hard as fuck. Intensity should be 90-105% FTP. Note that FTP is your one hour power on a good day when you're well recovered and highly motivated. When I first started doing threshold work, I had a hard time finishing the first interval. I never had an easy time doing the second interval. I was once able to do a 3x20, though I was flagging on the third interval.

SST isn't really "easy" either, but it's quite a bit easier than 2x20, so I did a great deal more than that. FWIW in April, my FTP was 226W, by mid June it was around 250W mostly from doing the "base week" I described above. I started doing VO2 work, but I popped really, really hard from a combination of excessive training stress and poor recovery from lack of sleep. The baby's sleep habits changed and one week with a lot of sleep deficit sent me spiraling into a pit I couldn't escape. I haven't ridden much in the last couple of months, but my FTP hasn't dropped...yet.

VO2Max intervals should always be 5-6 minutes in length. Three minute intervals are mostly anaerobic efforts. They're too little intensity to stimulate anaerobic adaptations and too short in duration to stimulate VO2Max adaptation. Beyond 6 minutes and it's difficult to sustain adequate intensity to be at VO2Max.

For aerobic performance, there are really two kind of limiters. The first at FTP is really a limitation in the quantity of slow-twitch muscle tissue and the vascularity within that tissue which limits the ability to clear lactate. VO2Max is the upper limit of one's ability to process oxygen which is constrained by the heart and lungs.

FTP will be some percent fraction of VO2Max. Very well-adapted athletes have an FTP that is very close to VO2Max. The typical cycle of training is such that one does FTP work to cause hypertrophy of slow-twitch muscle fibers and increased vascularity in the leg muscles. Then one does VO2Max training to increase stroke volume, RBC concentration, lung volume, etc. Here's a handy chart:

Note: The energy systems are described in much more detail on wikipedia if anyone is interested in the ATP-PC system and the Kreb's cycle and all that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_systems

Also, the promised tl;dr on performance manager is forthcoming in which I clarify the meaning of the acronyms: TSS, TSB, CTL, ATL, etc.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 14:22
timberland boots
timberland boots's picture

Thank you Heath, I remember you previously sent me a link about sweetspot training I just didn't connect the acronym. Much obliged for all the info in this thread

Anal Beads Al-Qaeda Ball Gag NAMBLA

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 14:34
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

too many TLAs and FLAs got me LOLing

Fri, 10/15/2010 - 22:46
smash
smash's picture

I'm trying to set FTP goals for fall/winter/spring: what kind of increases do you think are manageable if I focus on FTP and base endurance and average about 8 hrs/wk on the spencer? As I mentioned before, last time I tested I was at 250 but I'm overdue for a re-test.

I'm thinking that I have a good shot at making rapid gains since I'm less than a year into focused training, but maybe the opposite is true. Thx.

Sun, 10/17/2010 - 00:16
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

I was tested at 230w in january a few years ago, I had just started racing the year before and had taken the winter almost completely off. I made it to 250w by march and 270w in june.

The next year I had a baseline of 250w in january, was 280w in may, and 300w in july.

these were all right around 180-190lbs, anywhere from 6-15h per week of training.. normally around 8.

this year I probably made it back to around 280w in july, and am now much lower again.

anyways, I think it is relatively easy to get from 250 to 300, after that it seems to get pretty hard.. maybe a few watts a month.. probably time to get consistant and not take long breaks from training like I seem to.

Sun, 10/17/2010 - 23:52
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

true story on the breaking 300, I can handle about upper 290 to barely 300 on a really good day for 20 minutes when I'm fit over the summer, (270ish to 280's are normal training post work and tired on the trainer these days), but I feel like I'd have to ramp up my training volume significantly (significantly more than about 4 hours a weekish currently). I feel like I probably could have some pretty decent legs/power if I made the investment, judging by my results from lazy training, but new job though has sapped most of my effort coz exhausted at end of day. :(

Oh yeah, one of the things I found out that really really really helps out during 2x20s on the trainer is DRINK TONS OF WATER. Like I go through two extra large bidons of water during my intervals. Drink before, drink DURING the interval, drink afterwords. You should be able to swig water while cranking out ftp still.

Mon, 10/18/2010 - 10:15
toddistic
toddistic's picture

Anyone have any thoughts on running up 100+ stair steps as it relates to fast twitch muscle development? I've read that its a decent way to develop standing power.

I did my first set last night. Goal was to run up 100+ stairs to exhaustion as quickly as possible. I was able to do 3 repetitions of 150 stairs (skipping every other stair) until my legs were completely toast. It's the closest I've gotten to the feeling I get in my legs after a match sprint.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 14:55
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

You're going partially aerobic when you do 100+ steps.

Speed squats and weighted lunges, yo. Better yet, POW R KLEENZ.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 18:19
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Yeah, too many stairs to be a good fast twitch workout. Try this:

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 18:29
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

As far as plyo's for cycling, I still feel like lunge jumps are nearly the best for targeting quads/glutes, followed by rocket mans (where you pretty much jump as high as you can over and over).

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:26
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

jerry didnt you tell me about weighted box jumps? thats pretty much all i ever see basketball kids do other than skip rope. asplosiveness, basketballers has it

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:59
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Box jumps will do it. Couple that with squats.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:51
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture
Fri, 12/10/2010 - 15:42
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

wow the author has an unfortunate name

chad butts

bummer

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 22:24
halbritt
halbritt's picture

I got as far as page 2. Some of the things that dude writes are not founded in good science. He recommends periodization and lots of exercises. Read this:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/most_lifters_are_still_beginners

The case against a complicated routine.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has completed any research that helps us conclude why strength training aids endurance exercise. Many well-respected folks even say that it doesn't. There's been some research that suggests that strength training does help, especially for sprinters. I have my suspicions about increased muscle mass and vascularity leading to an increase in LT and certainly anaerobic performance. Plus, some of that type II muscle tissue will eventually be converted to type I with enough training.

My quick prescription for strength training for a cyclist is going to be the Starting Strength routine less the upper body exercises. Basically just squats and deads. When you're lifting, lift heavy, fuck what that Butt guy says. Dial in your form and eat everything in site. Get 1-2g protein per pound of body weight per day while you're lifting. Alternate your lifting with LSD. Once you get ready to start your base in earnest, you'll want to stop lifting and start doing SST.

The first part of this video has some good info, related to running, but it works for cycling as well. I like the idea, squat on M/F, deads on W, eat every-fucking-thing you can:

Roundtable: Programming & Military Training from stef bradford on Vimeo.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 02:37
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Well, my basic plan is starting the lifting in earnest right now, doing whatever's clever for road rides in December because I just finished CX season so I'm not gonna stick to a plan for now for the mental refresher, getting back into formal training/counting hours January with about 80% LSD + a fast-ish group ride once per weekend, then transition from that to 2 days SST/1 day LSD/1 day LT per week in Februrary on, and stay lifting throughout but put the weights down by March when collegiate race season starts. I don't really give a fuck about many of the races in collegiate per se, but I want to use it to build fitness for track/crit season in Juny/July, and being that all the collegiate stuff is in March/April, that should be a good way of getting my legs in order while still having time to get specific in May. Sound like a plan?

Edit: Oh, and as far as the lifting thing goes I'm not really trying to plan Butts' plan per se so much as adapt off of what's worked for me in the past. That means starting off at 4-6 weeks of the upper end of hypertropy right now (3-5 sets, 8-12 reps), and transition from that into base strength (3x5, add more weight any time I hit 7 reps), and than out of that into power (10-12 reps and explosion), before transferring it all into doing explosive stuff on the spencer.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 14:42

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