THE TRAINING SUPERTHREAD, feat. HALBRITT

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1percenttruck
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THE TRAINING SUPERTHREAD, feat. HALBRITT

Because it needs to be made. Let stalk power, diet, periodization, weight training (or lack thereof), intervals, base, specificity, physiology, peaking etc.

Also, GTFO all tl;dr haterz. R.T.F.M.

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 17:06
halbritt
halbritt's picture

'sup ya'll. Imma start with this:

The Next Level by Hunter Allen:

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Articles/the_next_level.pdf

All the really good reasons why you should be focused on improving FTP if you want to go faster.

Disclaimer: I'm not an adherent to all of Hunter Allen's training philosophies, but this is spot on. Also, he coaches way more pro athletes than I do. Hell, so does Chris Carmichael, but I feel like that guy is a kook.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 17:50
cookietruck
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AndreBear wrote:
periodization

the truck bros refer to this as doom week.
the week we would most like to be gone all the time on spencer rides but the bossy bitches be pms'in and all sensitive n shit.
so this is week most beer is consumed.

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 17:49
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Halbritt wrote:
'sup ya'll. Imma start with this:

The Next Level by Hunter Allen:

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Articles/the_next_level.pdf

All the really good reasons why you should be focused on improving FTP if you want to go faster.

Disclaimer: I'm not an adherent to all of Hunter Allen's training philosophies, but this is spot on. Also, he coaches way more pro athletes than I do. Hell, so does Chris Carmichael, but I feel like that guy is a kook.

So basically, by doing tempo/zone 3 work (with upper 3/SST being optimal) and some zone 4 TT-type efforts, yeah?

FTP is definitely what's holding me back. I can throw a mean first lap in a cross race, or a mean final 5 laps leading up to the sprint in a crit, but on breakaway/bridging/slow burn type efforts, I drop out earlier than the top cat 3's.

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 18:09
dougtruck
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i feel like a lot of my "getting faster" effort is wasted

get me into this thread

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 18:16
dougtruck
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cookietruck wrote:
AndreBear wrote:
periodization

the truck bros refer to this as doom week.
the week we would most like to be gone all the time on spencer rides but the bossy bitches be pms'in and all sensitive n shit.
so this is week most beer is consumed.

also known as shark week

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 18:16
halbritt
halbritt's picture

white folks wrote:
i feel like a lot of my "getting faster" effort is wasted

From what I know about how much you're riding, I'm just gonna say, ride more. Get a solid base, then work on FTP.

AndreBear wrote:
So basically, by doing tempo/zone 3 work (with upper 3/SST being optimal) and some zone 4 TT-type efforts, yeah?

Yes, but with the caveat that we're really only talking about the upper end of tempo. Big point of that article is that you need to bump your training stress up. SST ride is upper tempo, those should probably be 90m long or longer if possible. 2x20 at threshold should hurt like a motherfucker. Probably ought to have a minimum of 2-3 hours of solid L4 work per week. Most of the rest should SST and recovery.

You're cat3? Probably going to need a power meter to help establish and track your goals for a significant performance improvement. Power meter is good for helping you learn where you're at and do workouts at the correct intensity, but that's only half of it. The performance manager is the other half of the benefit, the explanation for which will take more time than I have right now. I'll write a tl;dr on that later.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 19:21
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

I did lots of diff intervals last night. It hurt really bad. When I was out on my own doing laps of the 'drome I tried to do everything on except for the back stretch, and then sprint again into turn one as hard as I can. Tried also saving up and then using all the last power at the very end. Felt awful/great.

for reference, what is meant by --x- intervals. what's the significance of the two numbers?

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 19:25
EivlEvo
EivlEvo's picture

I can put down 10 hundred watts.

srsly tho... this is pretty much exactly what I needed.

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 20:43
y
y's picture

AndreBear wrote:
Halbritt wrote:
'sup ya'll. Imma start with this:

The Next Level by Hunter Allen:

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Articles/the_next_level.pdf

All the really good reasons why you should be focused on improving FTP if you want to go faster.

Disclaimer: I'm not an adherent to all of Hunter Allen's training philosophies, but this is spot on. Also, he coaches way more pro athletes than I do. Hell, so does Chris Carmichael, but I feel like that guy is a kook.

So basically, by doing tempo/zone 3 work (with upper 3/SST being optimal) and some zone 4 TT-type efforts, yeah?

FTP is definitely what's holding me back. I can throw a mean first lap in a cross race, or a mean final 5 laps leading up to the sprint in a crit, but on breakaway/bridging/slow burn type efforts, I drop out earlier than the top cat 3's.

i'm in the same situation. i have the 1-3 minute power of a cat 2, but the ft of cat 3. luckily, ft has very little importance in road racing, but i still start losing ground during long digs in cross races. i can usually limit my losses by being strong technically.

ft/tempo is just such a boring/painful thing to train for.

CheshireCat wrote:
for reference, what is meant by --x- intervals. what's the significance of the two numbers?

repetitions x duration in minutes

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 22:11
rhys
rhys's picture

white folks wrote:
i feel like a lot of my "getting faster" effort is wasted

get me into this thread

F'in Aye. Can sprint, can't do anything else.

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 22:57
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

i think its funny how much fitness guys and software nerds have in common.

for instance wats up with so many three letter acronyms?

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 23:03
EivlEvo
EivlEvo's picture

Wow there's a lot of sprinters on tarck.

My whole team is all TT type dudes, which is FANTASTIC for my sprinting, but if they decide to string any of the races out and get a breakaway victory... that's all she wrote.

Anyways... I sprint.

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 23:24
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Seriously. Why do you think I got interested in training with power.

FTP - Functional Threshold Power
TSS - Training Stress Score
CTL - Chronic Training Load
ATL - Acute Training Load
IF - Intensity Factor
NP - Normalized Power

etc....

Most of these terms were invented by Dr. Andrew Coggan who has done a lot of groundbreaking work in terms of training with power. Power meters have been around since the 80s, but very little was known about them outside of professional circles until the book "Training and Racing With a Power Meter" came out in 2003. That book was an accumulation of knowledge that was borne out of the early "wattage" list that still exists today on google groups. Here's a bit of history:

http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/2010/04/brief-history-of-training-and-racing_1025.html

I recommend the book to anyone interested in training with power that has twenty bucks to spend. I have most of the books published on the topic of training. None of 'em really enlightened me much until I read this one. That said, I'm pretty sure the book has a disclaimer somewhere that says, "if you buy this book and read it, you will have to buy a power meter."

So, on the topic of acronyms, Imma go ahead and 'splain one and then throw some other details around it.

FTP - functional threshold power. This is an invention by Coggan, who only happens to be an exercise physiologist. In his professional life, he doesn't really focus on cycling training. Power training is really just a hobby for him and his wife who have both won national championships in pursuit. He's pretty good, but the power numbers I've seen for his wife are unbelievable.

So, FTP is the maximal power a well-motivated and well-rested person can average over the course of an hour. Sounds pretty simple, but a lot of people get hung up on it. Basically, it's a measure of maximum sustainable aerobic power, though not the maximum oxygen intake. Folks often think of this as LT or lactate threshold. The problem with LT, which does correlate very closely with FTP, is that it requires lab measurement and it's measured in a few different ways, so one is never really certain how to compare.

FTP is easy. Taper off for a few days, find a good course, then get out and kill it. Whatever you average over the course of an hour is your FTP which then becomes the prescriptive basis for training intensity. There are several power zones that describe the various energy systems used that are all based on a percentage of FTP.

Note: FTP can be a goal, but it helps to understand it's usefulness, that is, as a basis for training intensity. It's not proscriptive and it's certainly not a very specific measurement. Hitting it within 5-10w is all that's required to start training following which adjustments can be made to intensity. There are a number of ways to estimate FTP and seven deadly sins when it comes to doing so:

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/seven-deadly-sins.html

Next tl;dr will probably be training zones.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 10/07/2010 - 23:37
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

so what numbers would a person without a powertap use to determine ftp? could i do it running instead?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 00:15
halbritt
halbritt's picture

You'd use perceived exertion. I'll write about that tomorrow.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 01:12
donks
donks's picture

if i wake up in time/don't drink too much tonight i'll be going on my first group ride tomorrow morning, and going to the velodrome for the first time on tues. being the competitive person i am, i have a feeling i'll be reading this thread every day

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 05:34
timberland boots
timberland boots's picture

I can outsprint anyone I ride with but my FTP sucks. No bullshit when we do long rides I throw in a sprint every once in a while just to tire everyone out from trying to catch me because I can't hold the same cruising speed as them.

Anal Beads Al-Qaeda Ball Gag NAMBLA

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 11:33
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

<- total TT dude. Not a sprinter. I can also climb like a sherpa.
I dunno what my FTP is, but last time I was f'ing with a powermeter I definitely felt like 260-270 watts was something I could sustain for an hour.

the problem is after a hard sprint of >400W (I hit about 450-500W in my intervals. That's about all I could muster repetitively for an hour) I drop back down to like 180-200 watts. NOT GOOD. In a race, it would seem like this is a wasted sprint since I'd have to slow down too much to recover and lose any advantage I just made

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 11:56
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

Good roadie sprinting isn't just raw wattages a lot of the time (as opposed to track sprinting which is a total wattage contest), it's also really good timing, whether or not you caught a ride off someone, positioning, etc. You can throw down 1500 watts for a 5 seconds but it's not going to help you when you did it too far away

The whole FTP increase thing makes a lot more sense than focusing on sprinting/1 minute power, being in the lower cats (eg 3 and lower). We're honestly not at such a well organized level that we can throw up a good sprint train. If you can basically out time trial your competition, or just hang out up front, then break with your mega TT power, you're going to do better than hanging around in back but with massive sprint power that is more or less useless without being up front (which I've done myself).

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 12:38
crabbi
crabbi's picture

Get my into saving for a querg power meter. I can ep a powertap, but I would like to be able to use whatever wheels I want and when I want to use them.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
if you're here, you probably fucked up somewhere along the line.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 13:12
halbritt
halbritt's picture

octopus magic wrote:
The whole FTP increase thing makes a lot more sense than focusing on sprinting/1 minute power, being in the lower cats (eg 3 and lower).

This. You'll have way more matches to burn if you're cruising along in the pack at 70% FTP rather than >80% FTP.

rabbi wrote:
Get my into saving for a querg power meter. I can ep a powertap, but I would like to be able to use whatever wheels I want and when I want to use them.

Well... Quark and SRM are >$1500 for the most part. You can EP a Powertap Pro+ for about a third of that. How long is it going to take you to save that much money? You already ride a ton and have demonstrated that you have the time and the inclination to train consistently. I'd recommend going for the cheaper option so you can have a power meter to start the season off with. Then you'll have the performance manager which will help you build volume and intensity as well as taper and peak for races.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 13:53
crabbi
crabbi's picture

Need two power meters. One for training wheelset and one for race set. I like the option of using whatever wheelset I want.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
if you're here, you probably fucked up somewhere along the line.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:22
euclid
euclid's picture
Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:32
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

powertaps are not weight weenie friendly. I was all happy about being at 17 lbs on the race spencer. Esp. since I didn't spend all that much on it (mostly just replacing stuff broken)

any reviews here on the iBike powermeter? I know setup is a bitch, but honestly it seems like a fair option.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:35
halbritt
halbritt's picture

ibike is universally regarded as bullshit. There's three power meters: SRM, Powertap, and Quark. Everything else is either useless or vaporware.

rabbi wrote:
Need two power meters. One for training wheelset and one for race set. I like the option of using whatever wheelset I want.

Race wheels won't make you faster. An extra season on a power meter will.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:20
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

Older wired Powertaps are so cheap right now there's honestly no real reason not to have one.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:28
ryanoceros
ryanoceros's picture

Halbritt wrote:
ibike is universally regarded as bullshit.

I wouldn't even call it a powermeter. Power estimator is more accurate. My neighbor has one. I've never seen him use it effectively.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:32
crabbi
crabbi's picture

Halbritt wrote:
rabbi wrote:
Need two power meters. One for training wheelset and one for race set. I like the option of using whatever wheelset I want.

Race wheels won't make you faster. An extra season on a power meter will.

I need agility in the mountains.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
if you're here, you probably fucked up somewhere along the line.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 17:31
toddistic
toddistic's picture

getting into this thread... since im a track only guy, i'll be hitting the gym in a month and starting to put in base miles through the end of the year. after that it'll be more gym and spin work.

goals 2011 track season

1:13 kilo, 12.25 flying200

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 17:56
timberland boots
timberland boots's picture

this thread inspired me to get a trainer. Picked up a basic mag trainer today after work, planning on doing 2/3 training sessions a week with a heart meter over the winter time, coming back and devouring souls come spring time. Hell fuck yes.

Anal Beads Al-Qaeda Ball Gag NAMBLA

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 18:47
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Go to google groups, find the wattage list, search for the 90/90/90 workout.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 19:24
rhys
rhys's picture

When we are at sea I try and hit the spin bikes we have in the hangar as often as possible. They are the good Keiser ones with watts/rpm/etc readings. The only problem is the watts only goes up to 999, and the RPM maxes out at 140 and tells you to 'stop now'. Shitty!
I went for a session and thought of the part where Bjarne tells Sastre "that was good, try and keep it at 400w this time' when they're riding up that mountain.
Trying to maintain 400w for a long period of time is really, really difficult. For someone like me at least. So moral of the story, if I was bent on world domination by means of cycling, power training is where I'd start. For now I'm happy riding recreationally for training and finishing 2nd and 3rd. This may change in a month or two though.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:24
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Really wish I had a PM so I could do SST all accurately and shit...

I really, really like tempo rides. Favorite 'training ride' to do, really.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:28
y
y's picture

i don't think measuring power is very important.

most people just don't ride enough to benefit from it.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:59
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

Cool opinion, I guess.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:23
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

while i dont plan on training with power, i find the mechanics behind anything to do with fitness super intriguing. if i ever get the spencer jock bug for serious i'd have to get some cool tools to go with. it's like tinkering on hot rods. cept its your body. any you get a lot less tranny fluid in your eyes.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:26
halbritt
halbritt's picture

y wrote:
i don't think measuring power is very important.

most people just don't ride enough to benefit from it.

I'd say the minimum weekly commitment to gain fitness is 6-8 hours and that's being generous. 8-12 is more realistic. If one can manage that much of a commitment then having a power meter is going to be beneficial in terms of maximizing the gains one sees with limited training time.

But that's not the point, really. Many people simply want to make the assertion that a power meter isn't necessary because of some sort of personal bias. The bias that I've seen varies, some folks are traditionalists, some folks don't like "all the numbers", some folks think the expense is ridiculous (but will happily pay $3k for "race wheels"). In any case, the assertion is correct for most people. A power meter isn't necessary to get faster. One can simply "ride lots" as Eddy put it. Hell, the principle of specificity is enough knowledge, really. You want to get faster at doing 'X', then go out and do 'X' a lot.

With all that said, there are many benefits to using a power meter; the comfort that comes with the certainty that intensity and volume of training are correct and that one is neither over-training nor under-training is a big deal. Measuring progress is also a tremendous motivator as well. There really is no more efficient means to get faster then by using a power meter.

AndreBear wrote:
Really wish I had a PM so I could do SST all accurately and shit...

I really, really like tempo rides. Favorite 'training ride' to do, really.

Borrow a power meter, use it to calibrate PE, then do your SST rides. If you can't hook something up locally, I'll ship you mine for a week with the caveat that you'd have to follow the testing protocol that I suggest.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 14:16
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

I have a friend who would probably loan me his PT for a ride or two...

What is your testing protocol?

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 18:41
halbritt
halbritt's picture

This is from memory, I might come back and edit it.

  • 15 min easy warmup
  • 5 min near FTP (think SST or thereabouts)
  • 5 min easy riding
  • 3 min all out effort
  • 5 min easy riding
  • 20 min all out effort

Send me the ride file and I should be able to do the Monod estimate of FTP. From there, I'd have you do a 2x20 and a long SST session to calibrate PE, so you could continue to do them without a power meter. Following that, I'd suggest a rest day and then some tests for 5s, 20s, 1min, 5 min to round out your power profile and give you a sense of where your weaknesses are at.

For a better estimate of FTP, you could do a full hour-long time trial, but that's a bitch.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 19:09
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

If I get on my spencer 5-6 hours a week outside of commuting right now, that's "good". Typically it's more like maybe 4 hours, because getting dark out/busy with new job/only time I see girlfriend is more or less on the weekends.

Still have good power smiley

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 10:04
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

Halbritt wrote:
For a better estimate of FTP, you could do a full hour-long time trial, but that's a bitch.

So is racing, but that's why we do this right? To torture ourselves and indulge our own sadist tendencies inwards.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 12:18
shiftGNAR
shiftGNAR's picture

Dunno bout u but i race for the ladiez.

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 12:35
guggles
guggles's picture

i can haz moar powar!

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 13:17
1percenttruck
1percenttruck's picture

CheshireCat wrote:
Halbritt wrote:
For a better estimate of FTP, you could do a full hour-long time trial, but that's a bitch.

So is racing, but that's why we do this right? To torture ourselves and indulge our own sadist tendencies inwards.

Yeah, but motivating yourself to do an hour at FTP by yourself on a flat road is seriously worlds apart from being around your adversaries in a cross race killing it, or taking the fast break up the road in an RR. I can't even think of any coaches that have their amateurs do full on hour TT's. I would take 4 kilo efforts over that any day.

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 17:06
FIXIE STAR
FIXIE STAR's picture

Doing an hour solo TT is stupid for your FTP.

Just do 20 minutes and call it a day.

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 19:59
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

y wrote:
i don't think measuring power is very important.

most people just don't ride enough to benefit from it.

There is some truth to this. Next to ceramic bearings power meters have to be the biggest scam pulled on the average club racer. It's been my experience when you look at the fast end of the local talent you get plenty of guys who don't ever train with a power meter.

That being said it's certainly a great tool if you are the type of person who can benefit from it.

Here in Richmond there are four guys that between them won every single week of the local crit series. Of the four only one of them uses a powermeter and almost never races with it.

I know quite a few guys that are slave to it and while they can rock a 40k tt they are never in the winning move when its time to really throw down.

Best quote from one of the elite locals was "In a race it does not matter how many watts you can hold. Either you can bridge or you can't"

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 22:32
EivlEvo
EivlEvo's picture

Fyi I got my power meter laced to a mavic open pro. It's the old wired model for $125 shipped with a dura ace 7800 cassette and a conti tire.

I sold the cassette with my reynolds carbon tubs to sweeten the deal. I was trying to take my spencer out of "race mode" and put it into get insanely strong mode since I dunno what my time is going to be like to race after I grad in december.

It's a nice setup. Only issue is the PC dock is serial. So I gotta get a serial to USB adapter or something?

Anyways... got my cannondale from 15lbs to like 17.6. Damn.

I haven't done anything with it yet. I've ridden, but haven't looked into the numbers. It is mildly exciting seeing max wattage #'s close to 2hp tho. Not that they mean anything, but it's fascinating.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 00:24
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

Alright, doing the powertap thing.
Here is the question:
do I get the SL hub laced to an open pro for like 100 bucks more
or get the hub and lace it to something I already have: (I have some reynolds DV46 tubulars)

or do I sell the reynolds tubulars AND my ksyrium SLP's and get something cool like edge clinchers or some ebay crabon clinchers to lace up?
I weight 148 soaking wet right now (fully clothed) so I could get away with 16hx24h rims instead of the 32h the powertap comes stock laced to the open pro.

Basically, do I make the powertap a race wheel, or do I keep my crabon tubulars as my race wheels and not race with power data?

I'm using my Garmin edge 305 as my head unit.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 00:31
halbritt
halbritt's picture

bradencbc wrote:
y wrote:
i don't think measuring power is very important.

most people just don't ride enough to benefit from it.

blah blah blah anecdotal bullshit

A power meter is an instrument, that if used appropriately will give a better value in terms of speed vs. dollars spent than any other part you'd like to consider. With that said, there's a lot of people in the world that haven't a clue how to use one. If one of these "slaves to the power meter" can't bridge, then he's doing something wrong, because that's precisely the kind of shortcoming a power meter excels as exposing.

If you're 3/4/5 and have some natural talent, you can do well without a power meter. I don't see many people winning in pro/1/2 fields without one. I suspect most don't get used appropriately. I've read lots of stories and blogs about people using a power meter without ever having done any testing to establish FTP. I've read other stories about people that use it just to stomp on the pedals and drive up the "max power" number to something that looks pro-ish.

Using one correctly is a rigid and complicated process that a lot of people are averse to. It's difficult to understand and takes the joy out of training for a lot of people.

CheshireCat wrote:
Basically, do I make the powertap a race wheel, or do I keep my crabon tubulars as my race wheels and not race with power data?

I'm using my Garmin edge 305 as my head unit.

Use whatever rims you're most likely to train on. If that means clinchers, than so be it. When you race, use good tires and latex tubes if you're worried about rolling resistance. You'll get the most benefit from the PM from using it as much as possible.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 01:05
CheshireCat
CheshireCat's picture

I'll train on tubies if I have to. I really dont care, the problem is that I like to ride trails as well. Considering a cheap wired powertap for the MTB since weight is less concern, or just using the HRM. I hate racing both road and XC since none of the gear is shared.
At least on clinchers I can swap out for some cross clinchers and do lighter trail duty on the CX spencer.

-is a cat
-is a REAL doctor!

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 01:13

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