wheel building / discussion thread

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cookietruck
cookietruck's picture

NKOTB wrote:
CHZtruck wrote:
dmotobear wrote:
I'm pretty picky..So I'll re-do it again if I have to.

I did have the hop out once, checked tension and it was like 140-150kgf right at the seam.. i took the whole wheel down and started over. I read somewhere that riding it for a few days/weeks and then checking it again could solve the problem as well..

what i do after i get the wheel real nice is take it out stand
take skewer out
lay wheel down so axle is on the ground (carpet).
get on knees
put hands on rim 180* opposite each other
lean weight on hands
hear spokes ping usually coz nipples seating
do this around the wheel on both sides
put wheel back in stand
true some more

Jobst would snub your stress releasing methods. You grab the spokes, like four at a time, and squeeze 'em to release the tension.

even after doing the grab spokes and squeeze method my wheel always moves if i put it on the ground and stress it...
so i end up dong both...

Thu, 04/22/2010 - 17:45
halbritt
halbritt's picture

I just grab the spokes and squeeze. Following that, the best way I know to stress-relieve is to ride the wheel for a couple weeks and then do final tension and true. Speaking of which, what tension are you guys building to?

Also, hop near the rim seam can be a bitch to get rid of.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Thu, 04/22/2010 - 18:30
tzusing
tzusing's picture

dmotobear wrote:
I finished up the rear wheel..

Is this true enough? I put my brand new mavic aksium in the stand and it wasn't as true as this:..

I tensioned the wheel to roughly 110kgf all the way around and then adjusted as needed.. there is a slight dip at the rim's seam that I can't get out.. but its tiny.

That's just an imperfect joint. Something that should have been sorted out at manufacturing, not truing.

Thu, 04/22/2010 - 20:41
turpencat
turpencat's picture

tzusing wrote:
dmotobear wrote:
I finished up the rear wheel..

Is this true enough? I put my brand new mavic aksium in the stand and it wasn't as true as this:..

I tensioned the wheel to roughly 110kgf all the way around and then adjusted as needed.. there is a slight dip at the rim's seam that I can't get out.. but its tiny.

That's just an imperfect joint. Something that should have been sorted out at manufacturing, not truing.

aw snap throwin the smack.

johnnyraja wrote:
If you've never done it then yes, it's very surprising.

Thu, 04/22/2010 - 20:45
tzusing
tzusing's picture

lolz, just saying it how it is.
I'm not saying hpluses are all perfect. we have tacos to remind me of that, but i don't want someone to feel incompetent when it's the manufacturers fault.

Thu, 04/22/2010 - 20:48
halbritt
halbritt's picture

tzusing wrote:
lolz, just saying it how it is.
I'm not saying hpluses are all perfect. we have tacos to remind me of that, but i don't want someone to feel incompetent when it's the manufacturers fault.

Fault? Not sure it's a fault, necessarily. Pretty much every Sun rim I've ever built has had this issue. It's because they're cheap. Most Mavics ever ever built, don't. They're also not cheap. DT Swiss I tuned up recently did and I was surprised. It's just the nature of some rims. I'd say it's more or less okay depending on the cost and expected quality of the rim.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 02:07
tzusing
tzusing's picture

True true. But my point was to say that it's not his inability to true but rather that the joint isn't aligned perfectly from the start.

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 02:14
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

halbritt wrote:
I just grab the spokes and squeeze. Following that, the best way I know to stress-relieve is to ride the wheel for a couple weeks and then do final tension and true. Speaking of which, what tension are you guys building to?

Also, hop near the rim seam can be a bitch to get rid of.

I just jam the side of a NDS crank arm into the spoke crossings, a la Sheldon. Really seems to get all the ping out and also bends the spokes around each other at the crossings. In the shop, we have a foam mat with a thick rubber mat over it in the workbench area for knee and back relief, but it also works nicely for stress relieving. It's thick enough that you can throw a newly trued wheel at it and not damage the wheel, even cosmetically. This is a really important thing to do, since it really puts the wheel through its paces.

I actually try to do all of the things mentioned by everyone in this thread every time I build a wheel. Better safe than sorry.

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 02:22
halbritt
halbritt's picture

tzusing wrote:
True true. But my point was to say that it's not his inability to true but rather that the joint isn't aligned perfectly from the start.

Indeed.

As for stress-relieving. If you're working in a shop and you're truing a wheel for a customer you want to get it done and not have the wheel come back, hence the need for stress-relieving. When you're me and you're working on your own wheel, you can take your time to ride the wheel and thoroughly stress relieve it in the way that it's going to be used without having to resort to any silliness like standing on the wheel or getting after it with a crank arm. Squeezing parallel spokes together seems to do the trick well enough for my purposes.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 02:31
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

halbritt wrote:
As for stress-relieving. If you're working in a shop and you're truing a wheel for a customer you want to get it done and not have the wheel come back, hence the need for stress-relieving. When you're me and you're working on your own wheel, you can take your time to ride the wheel and thoroughly stress relieve it in the way that it's going to be used without having to resort to any silliness like standing on the wheel or getting after it with a crank arm. Squeezing parallel spokes together seems to do the trick well enough for my purposes.

It's not really silliness, it just lets you finish the wheel that day.

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#seating

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 02:50
DDYTDY
DDYTDY's picture

halbritt wrote:
Squeezing parallel spokes together seems to do the trick well enough for my purposes.

Works for me. I use MTB gloves.

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 07:19
skipbrakes

I've always used a coated park cone wrench instead of a crank arm.

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 07:52
dougtruck
dougtruck's picture

PROtip: use a solwang

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 10:06
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

skipbrakes wrote:
I've always used a coated park cone wrench instead of a crank arm.

I mean, anything you push in there is going to work. I just use a crankarm because they're about the right shape and are readily available at the coop.

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 13:59
halbritt
halbritt's picture

DDYTDY wrote:
halbritt wrote:
Squeezing parallel spokes together seems to do the trick well enough for my purposes.

Works for me. I use MTB gloves.

Eh. I use HTFU.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 14:39
DDYTDY
DDYTDY's picture

Pow!

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 14:41
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

I THINK I JUST SHIT MY PANTS

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Fri, 04/23/2010 - 15:47
Petr5
Petr5's picture

No way, squeezing spokes hurts. I can do a much better job getting my spokes seated using the Truck method.
As for kg of force, for 3X I shoot for 90.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
"Your bike sucks and we have a team of biased experts to pseudo-scientifically test that hypothesis, all in blue shirts."

Sun, 04/25/2010 - 09:39
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Petr5 wrote:
No way, squeezing spokes hurts.

Lots of things hurt. Are you going to let that stop you?

I think I usually build to 110-120kgf for DS rear and a bit less for the front. NDS rear is whatever.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Sun, 04/25/2010 - 16:10
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

Wheel #2 turned out a lot better :)

I hope to build up a kinlin xr-300 to dura ace rear hub this week.. I have everything but the spokes lying around in my garage.

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 00:36
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

^nice.
How can you true wheel with the tv on? I need complete silence.
edit: those wheels look gorgeous btw

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 11:52
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

I found this video, where can one find a spoke tension graph tool online that briefly shows up at the end?

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 12:35
halbritt
halbritt's picture

No clue, but that's a cool trick. I use my fingers for that.

Check out this video. Looks like he's using a DT Swiss Proline tension meter and exporting the values to an excel spreadsheet.

http://www.dtswiss.com/Products/Proline/DT-tensio-digital.aspx

Is the tension meter in question which has an indicator manufactured by Mahr. The dude in the video is using a program called "mahrcom" presumably to get the values off the indicator and into excel.

http://www.mahr.com/

I bet that if you bought a wheel from him and he gave you a graph of spoke tensions, you'd feel really good about having spent a goddamned lot of money on getting a set of wheels hand built by him.

In terms of actually performance benefit, it'd be a small convenience having the tension values automatically recorded. Certainly not worth $900 to me (the cost of the meter).

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 13:39
Petr5
Petr5's picture

dmotobear wrote:
I found this video, where can one find a spoke tension graph tool online that briefly shows up at the end?

http://www.parktool.com/repair/printhowto.asp?id=173

Sneaky Viking wrote:
"Your bike sucks and we have a team of biased experts to pseudo-scientifically test that hypothesis, all in blue shirts."

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 15:17
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

thank you so much, that is rad.

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 16:11
halbritt
halbritt's picture

I'm going to use that this evening.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 17:33
ryker

I found the visualisations in the Park spreadsheet really helpful for clarifying what I needed to do. It is a great learning tool and the website tutorial is great too.

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 20:57
ryker

What are normal folk using for tension meters? I use the Park but it never really impressed me. Would like to have the FSA meter but $$$.

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 21:01
Petr5
Petr5's picture

I have a wheelsmith. I like it. I've only ever used that and the park and I'd say I like it more than the extra it cost me.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
"Your bike sucks and we have a team of biased experts to pseudo-scientifically test that hypothesis, all in blue shirts."

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 21:15
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

The Park meter is good. Haven't used anything else, but I can certify that very good wheels can be built with it.

Tue, 04/27/2010 - 03:21
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Eh, spoke tension isn't really something that can be measured with a great deal of precision. I have and use the Park tool which is more than sufficient.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 04/27/2010 - 14:56
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

Do you all use a spoke punch? This is one of my new favorite tools and it really cuts back on pinging and stress relieving. Also, you get to hit your wheel with a hammer. Indirectly.

http://www.bikepartsplace.com/discount/spoke-head-punch/

Tue, 04/27/2010 - 15:12
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Wow, that's a $22 punch that would cost me about $3 and five minutes to make (grinding a concave into a pin punch).

Since I'm building wheels for myself, I don't need to resort to these sorts of tactics. I build the wheel, get it true, get the tension close, stress-relieve with my hands and ride it for a couple weeks. At some point after riding it for a while, I'll put it back on the truing stand and really put some effort into getting the tension balanced and as high as possible. I don't need to beat on the wheel or lean on the wheel or put anything in the spokes and twist. I do bend the spokes in near the flange with my fingers to get them set in the right direction.

If I were building wheels for other people that I didn't expect to see again I would probably want to use a spoke head punch. I'd probably want to do a better job of seating the spokes into the flange. I'd probably want to do a better job of stress relieving, and I'd probably consider using thread locker on the nipples. Since I don't build wheels to sell to others, I don't bother with all that effort. I'd rather just build 'em, ride 'em and true 'em up a time or two when they're young. It's less time consuming and once the process is complete, the wheel is awfully strong.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 04/27/2010 - 15:34
ryker

^ Using that DT spoke punch. Very happy with the purchase (but paid a lot less than $22). I'm pretty amateur when it comes to wheelbuilding but I prefer to invest more time up front and build a wheel that I don't need to revisit.

Tue, 04/27/2010 - 17:36
halbritt
halbritt's picture

I suppose my point is that those processes create a good enough wheel to ship out, but it'll never be perfect. A wheel is always going to change once it's ridden, as such, revisiting it become a necessity if you want a perfect wheel.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Tue, 04/27/2010 - 19:06
deadforkinglast
deadforkinglast's picture

halbritt wrote:
I suppose my point is that those processes create a good enough wheel to ship out, but it'll never be perfect. A wheel is always going to change once it's ridden, as such, revisiting it become a necessity if you want a perfect wheel.

I disagree. Those processes create the best wheel possible. If the wheel continues to change after you ride it, you can true it up some more, just like you already do, but setting the spoke heads is important. If you don't do it yourself and it doesn't happen on its own as you tension (this only happens with really nice hubs), there is no naturally occurring force that will set them. If the heads aren't set, there is the very good chance that there will be play on the order of a tenth or hundredth of a mm between the spoke heads and the hub flange, which will break spokes in the long run.

Same is true of other processes. While the forces that make your wheels ping happen in regular riding, they don't normally happen in as controlled and focused a fashion as pushing gently on the rim from the side and pressing a NDS crankarm (or the handle of a wrench, or the side of your hand, or anything) against the spoke crossings. I don't want to hear my spokes ping when I'm dropping off of a log. I want that shit to be done with before the wheel ever goes onto my bike.

Wed, 04/28/2010 - 02:49
eastcoastchris
eastcoastchris's picture

i need to build up a proper wheelset for my new frame, and i want to use H+son formation faces.

i was wondering if anyone has experience with Miche pista hubs, and are they any nicer than formulas. i know price point isnt everything, i mean for god sakes, all city is selling their track cranks for $150, and you can get the same thing without any logos from Bens for $100.

can anyone help?

Wed, 04/28/2010 - 12:18
turpencat
turpencat's picture

yo heath, you wanna make me some parts for my bike jig?
I'm making one out of not wood.

johnnyraja wrote:
If you've never done it then yes, it's very surprising.

Wed, 04/28/2010 - 12:20
halbritt
halbritt's picture

eastcoastchris wrote:
i was wondering if anyone has experience with Miche pista hubs, and are they any nicer than formulas. i know price point isnt everything, i mean for god sakes, all city is selling their track cranks for $150, and you can get the same thing without any logos from Bens for $100.

Take your stupid "which cheap ass track hub is better" question back to bike forums.

turpencat wrote:
yo heath, you wanna make me some parts for my bike jig?
I'm making one out of not wood.

Depends on what you need. My welder is in the shop presently. It'll be out soon, but my time to build shit is limited.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 04/28/2010 - 14:35
Larry Winget
Larry Winget's picture

I just kind of skimmed this thread. If this was mentioned already, sorry but a screw starter is something I'd consider an essential tool for wheelbuilding. Use it to get your nipples started. Much quicker with deep rims than using an old spoke or whatever.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00941024000P?vName=Tools&cName=HandTools&sName=Screwdrivers&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a

The Pitbull of Personal Development®

Wed, 04/28/2010 - 14:51
halbritt
halbritt's picture

Good call. I have one of these for driving nipples:

Works pretty well.

...shift like jesus making one set of footprints in the sand in your time of need

Wed, 04/28/2010 - 14:55
Larry Winget
Larry Winget's picture

I can't take credit for the idea. I'm not sure if the one I posted is the right size either. Just take a nipple into your local hardware store and find the right size that way.

The Pitbull of Personal Development®

Wed, 04/28/2010 - 14:54
DDYTDY
DDYTDY's picture

tarckeemoon wrote:
I just kind of skimmed this thread. If this was mentioned already, sorry but a screw starter is something I'd consider an essential tool for wheelbuilding. Use it to get your nipples started. Much quicker with deep rims than using an old spoke or whatever.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00941024000P?vName=Tools&cName=HandTools&sName=Screwdrivers&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a

Nice!
Thank you.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 20:18
EivlEvo
EivlEvo's picture

So I'm bringing this over from the dumb questions thread.

I contacted Mack @ Mack hubs about building me a rear hub for my Retro Direct so I don't have to use my current ghetto (albeit very reliable) hub that I "made".

The question is... I assume if he takes the project, I'll need to give him some form of measurements and such... which I should be able to do, but I need reinforcement. If I have him spin me a hub that has enough space for two freewheels on one side, how would the flanges get moved about? How do you all think this hub was designed originally by Hirondelle?

If I tell him to just add extra threads on one side, I think I'm almost in the same boat as I am now (except it'd be one piece instead of like 10). If I want him to keep the spacing at about 130 or 135, does that mean that the spoke flanges would get moved over? And how far over is too far over? Because obviously, I'd want the wheel to be somewhat centered in the frame, so this would come down to dish?

I'm DEFINITELY no pro wheelbuilder... hmm....

Fri, 05/14/2010 - 19:02
VT regularbike
VT regularbike's picture

Well enough extra thread for 2 freewheels isn't going to require more wheel dish than a modern 8/9/10spd cassette so I would think you'd be good.

Miguel wrote:
i mean as long as we're spending money, lets just set the wallet on fire ok

Fri, 05/14/2010 - 21:43
dmotobear
dmotobear's picture

VT tallbike wrote:
Well enough extra thread for 2 freewheels isn't going to require more wheel dish than a modern 8/9/10spd cassette so I would think you'd be good.

word. you wont have much dish at all compared to a modern wheel.

Sat, 05/15/2010 - 15:58
EivlEvo
EivlEvo's picture

Oh yes... how silly of me. I know on the current wheel which was built as a flipflop, I have the spokes on the drive side basically "maxed out" (it was just a crappy wheel). I suppose this may not be as complex as I'd previously anticipated? IF I can get mack to build me the hub.

Sat, 05/15/2010 - 16:43
EivlEvo
EivlEvo's picture

Alright... Mack said he could build the hub no problem if I gave him my design measurements. Being that I've never really fully contemplated having a custom hub built, I have a few dumb wheel questions.

1. He asked me about chainline? Since a retro-direct has essentially 4 chainlines, I'm not sure what to tell him on this one. See next dq's.

2. The hub that I have the wheel built with now is essentailly about 150-155mm spacing. There is NO WAY I'll need that much spacing with this custom built hub, but the question is... how wide would one order a custom hub? The frame is 126mm spacing (but it obviously can stretch). If I go down that much, I wonder if I'll have issues with the chains clearing the chainstays? I suppose I could always have it built as a 126mm hub and then if necessary get a super long axle and space it back out to 150ish? Does that make sense?

3. Low flange or high flange? 1. Which would be more classy and 2. Which would be stronger? I'd figure high flange because the triangle is shorter and the angles are better (lateral stability wise?).

4. 32 holes? I'm leaning towards this because the current rim I have is 32 hole, but also I'm VERY seriously considering some ghisallo wooden rims. Available in 32 and 36 hole... I can't see a reason to run 36 holes? Anyone? Bueller?

Hmm... u guys know anything else I might want to consider? He's pricing me at 130 Euros for a high flange and 105 for a low flange... for just the rear hub, sound like a ripoff? I don't know how much his regular hubs are.

Sorry for all the q's... I'm excited, but nervous that He'll build it and it will show up and be a clusterfuck and nothing like what I designed?

Thu, 05/20/2010 - 19:51
blickblocks
blickblocks's picture

^ excited to see a pro looking retro direct, with Mack hubs no less

I'm buying spokes tomorrow! Yay. I'm holding off on building both wheels till I know what hub I want to use for the front, so I'm just doing the rear for now.

Thu, 05/20/2010 - 22:47
aek
aek's picture

EivlEvo wrote:
Alright... Mack said he could build the hub no problem if I gave him my design measurements. Being that I've never really fully contemplated having a custom hub built, I have a few dumb wheel questions.

1. He asked me about chainline? Since a retro-direct has essentially 4 chainlines, I'm not sure what to tell him on this one. See next dq's.

2. The hub that I have the wheel built with now is essentailly about 150-155mm spacing. There is NO WAY I'll need that much spacing with this custom built hub, but the question is... how wide would one order a custom hub? The frame is 126mm spacing (but it obviously can stretch). If I go down that much, I wonder if I'll have issues with the chains clearing the chainstays? I suppose I could always have it built as a 126mm hub and then if necessary get a super long axle and space it back out to 150ish? Does that make sense?

3. Low flange or high flange? 1. Which would be more classy and 2. Which would be stronger? I'd figure high flange because the triangle is shorter and the angles are better (lateral stability wise?).

4. 32 holes? I'm leaning towards this because the current rim I have is 32 hole, but also I'm VERY seriously considering some ghisallo wooden rims. Available in 32 and 36 hole... I can't see a reason to run 36 holes? Anyone? Bueller?

Hmm... u guys know anything else I might want to consider? He's pricing me at 130 Euros for a high flange and 105 for a low flange... for just the rear hub, sound like a ripoff? I don't know how much his regular hubs are.

Sorry for all the q's... I'm excited, but nervous that He'll build it and it will show up and be a clusterfuck and nothing like what I designed?

I can't answer any of that except to say that I think that's a very reasonable price for a one-off, from-scratch hub.

doofo wrote:
tarck eats ur soul one lol at a time

Fri, 05/21/2010 - 08:26

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