wheel building / discussion thread

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Gary Fissure

I thought machine-built wheels did not build to the same pattern as hand-built. Something about how the machine works. On modern hubs I think it's sort of okay (obvs not ideal) to ignore the indents. Again depends on abuse/ flange thickness/ whatever.

Tue, 12/26/2017 - 16:24
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

For matching deformation on a used hub, I like to figure out which hole had the key spoke in it, use it for the key spoke again and go from there.
8 driveside trailing spokes
8 non-driveside trailing spokes
8 driveside leading spokes
8 non-driveside leading spokes

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Tue, 12/26/2017 - 16:47
fixed
fixed's picture

got an rr460db rim for christmas, so just ordered all z pieces for a rebuild of this white industries front. man dt swiss makes it easy! they put the ERD right on the rim. hopefully this stuff shows up before the weekend.

Tue, 12/26/2017 - 20:56
The RTS
The RTS's picture
(Reply to #5104)

Sneaky Viking wrote:
I thought machine-built wheels did not build to the same pattern as hand-built. Something about how the machine works. On modern hubs I think it's sort of okay (obvs not ideal) to ignore the indents. Again depends on abuse/ flange thickness/ whatever.

Machine-built wheels can be built to any normal pattern.

Tue, 12/26/2017 - 21:53
liquify
liquify's picture

There’s a chance that the rims had different hole side nearest valve hole to change it up? That would change your lacing pattern.

Tue, 12/26/2017 - 22:00
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

I measured the Alex Adventurer 2 rims that I'm going to build for my Schwinn and for the first time in my whole history of wheel building, the published ERD was exactly the same as my measurement down to the millimeter.

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Wed, 12/27/2017 - 09:49
bward1028

if you lace using the gerd schraner method from art of wheelbuilding, you can pretty easily change which direction you put the spokes through, to match the hub scars

Wed, 12/27/2017 - 11:28
Andrew_Squirrel
Andrew_Squirrel's picture

Thanks for the feedback/suggestions.
Took some photos last night after setting up the truing stand and getting tools ready.
Turns out all of my 3 relacing errors got jumbled in my brain.
The issue is that one flange matches the scars while the other seems to be one hole off.
In the process of trying to get one side to line up I laced the wheel opposite (key to right of valve) of what my two books suggest (key to left of valve). Not sure if that matters as long as you continue to mirror the lacing in the instructions.

This side looks good:

This one, not so much:

But wheel looks normal to me:

Thanks

Wed, 12/27/2017 - 13:42
bward1028

i would just relace the one side of the wheel that is wrong. it'll be a small pain in the ass to wiggle the spokes through but it should work fine.

Wed, 12/27/2017 - 14:20
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

I always lace key to the right of the valve per Sheldon.

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Wed, 12/27/2017 - 15:23
ryker

Because you reversed the key spoke, you have attached spokes to the rim in a "backwards" way. If your rim is directionally-drilled, it's probable you have introduced more stress at the spoke-nipple interface. If your rim is center-drilled or directionally-drilled in the uncommon way (old rims, some French, some Dutch, etc), then no problem.

Here is what you need to do conceptually although it will be easier to take it completely apart. First clock the rim so your taped spoke is one position further from the valve hole. Then you will have fixed the "backwards" problem but created a non-parallel problem under the valve hole. Clock the spokes on the NPS (non-power side) by one position, both at the hub and the rim (leaving the PS spokes in place). Then you will have fixed the non-parallel problem and lined up the scars. You can confirm or disprove this theory before doing anything by verifying the lesser scars on the flange insides will line up as well.

Wed, 12/27/2017 - 15:36
crowding
crowding's picture

.

Wed, 12/27/2017 - 20:51
mander
mander's picture

Squirrel, you are in a little zone of variation that I like to use to get hub labels lined up. Making the key spoke ds or nds can get that one detail perfect, but it can also fuck up either rim handedness or in your case, spoke indentations. And Sheldon says to only do ds keys.

But yeah tldr, my intuition is that your key spoke is on the wrong side and currently is pointing the wrong way. Do you see your current key spoke? Have a look at the one coming into the rim into the very next hole down from the valve. It is a spoke running parallel to the key but from the opposite hub flange. This is now called the key spoke's buddy,, and it is the role that your current key spoke needs to be in. So it is one spoke hole away from where it needs to go. And so the whole wheel needs to be redone, both sides.

Warning : this is off the top of my head and may be insane

Sun, 12/31/2017 - 04:28
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

Guys, I built a set of those Alex Adventurer rims the other day and can confirm that they are super fucking awesome. So round so true.

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Sun, 12/31/2017 - 11:26
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

Same here. Built some in 700 and 26 now. Best in class.

Sun, 12/31/2017 - 13:13
jawn doe
jawn doe's picture

it's unreal how good they are for how few dollars it takes to own one.

Sun, 12/31/2017 - 18:23
Andrew_Squirrel
Andrew_Squirrel's picture

Woo, Finally got the wheels relaced and everything is perfect except for the label alignment.

I also made a terrible discovery after initially fixing everything. Upon closer inspection the Pacenti Brevet rims have a very subtle alternate drilling unlike the Pacenti PL23. Dammit! Had to completely relace again & take that into consideration. Wish they had put some arrow stickers on rim bed to tip off the builder like Light Bicycle does with their rims.

I can't complain though, I learned all the hard lessons on this build but feel like I can deal with all the lacing considerations on the next wheelset.
Thanks for feedback.

Tue, 01/02/2018 - 15:38
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

What an epic that wheel build has been!
Congrats on getting it all set.

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Tue, 01/02/2018 - 16:23
mander
mander's picture

Nicely done mr squirrel. These painful lessons build expertise.

Thu, 01/04/2018 - 02:55
Tail Hook Lengthener
Tail Hook Lengthener's picture

Does anyone have any idea if/when Alex will be selling their rim-brake 650b Adventure 2?

Sneaky Viking wrote:
when you look back at your life sometimes you see a set of hands on your keyboard and a set of paws, but sometimes there's only a set of paws and that's when Tarckbear was typing for you.

Mon, 01/15/2018 - 14:31
Andrew_Squirrel
Andrew_Squirrel's picture

Finally had a second to setup tubeless Extralight Babbyshoe on the Brevet rims.
Couldn't do it with normal pump strokes but once I engaged the tubless pump dump tank the tire bead jumped on the shoulder without much trouble.
I put 3 passes of tubeless tape on the front (finish a roll) and 2 passes on the rear. Front wheel tape seemed to help get a slightly better seal during inflation.
Had to do some slight retensioning on the front wheel after mounting and inflating the tubes.

Photo album here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_squirrel/albums/72157668510146559

Click for video:

Old Wheelset with PL23 rims, straight gauge spokes, worn EL babyshoe pass tires, tubes... etc
Front: 1583g
Rear: 1664g

New Wheelset with Brevet rims, double butted spokes, brass nipples, new EL babyshoe pass TC tires, sealant, valve stem, tape, skewers, cassette
Front: 1520g
Rear: 1640g

Other interesting measurements.
PL23 Rim inner width: 18mm
Brevet Rim inner width: 19mm

TC Extralight Babyshoe weight: 374g (both identical)

Initial inflation (not stretched) TC Extralight Babyshoe width = 39.5mm
Interested to see how much it stretches out since Compass claims actual 42mm width.

Mon, 01/15/2018 - 15:19
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture

Man, I love that popping sound that tells you shit is working!

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Mon, 01/15/2018 - 18:12
ergott
ergott's picture

Nice work!

If someone on here did it, I'd probably like it. Since it was done by someone I don't know, they're a fucking idiot.

Mon, 01/15/2018 - 19:34
jawn doe
jawn doe's picture
(Reply to #5124)

Tail Hook Lengthener wrote:
Does anyone have any idea if/when Alex will be selling their rim-brake 650b Adventure 2?

aren’t you usually the one with that answer?

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 08:16
Tail Hook Lengthener
Tail Hook Lengthener's picture
(Reply to #5125)

jawn doe wrote:
Tail Hook Lengthener wrote:
Does anyone have any idea if/when Alex will be selling their rim-brake 650b Adventure 2?

aren’t you usually the one with that answer?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sneaky Viking wrote:
when you look back at your life sometimes you see a set of hands on your keyboard and a set of paws, but sometimes there's only a set of paws and that's when Tarckbear was typing for you.

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 11:22
fixed
fixed's picture

let's say that, hypothetically, you stripped two nipples building a wheel. the wheel is currently true. it still needs a tubeless tire, which may cause spoke tension to drop and need more tension.
what would be the best way for this hypothetical person to fix this problem? YOLO and carry on, or try to replace said nipples?
if replace nipples, how would this hypothetical person do that?

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 12:13
ergott
ergott's picture

Replace before you tape rim and install tire. Can you get a wrench on it enough to back the nipple out? You don't have to detension whole wheel for this. Just do one at a time.

If someone on here did it, I'd probably like it. Since it was done by someone I don't know, they're a fucking idiot.

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 14:02
fixed
fixed's picture

i can't even back the nipple off, but i guess i could grab the nipple with a set of pliers and go at it that way?

i am glad to hear i won't have to detension the whole wheel

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 17:06
Andrew_Squirrel
Andrew_Squirrel's picture

curious if they were alloy nips or brass?

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 17:39
ergott
ergott's picture

If you can't get anything to grab the nipple enough to back it out then I'd detension. Don't set up a wheel ready to ride with a known flaw that could bite you down the road.

If someone on here did it, I'd probably like it. Since it was done by someone I don't know, they're a fucking idiot.

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 17:43
fixed
fixed's picture

dt swiss brass. i'm a dumbass because i thought they took a 1 spoke wrench but in reality they take a 0.
thanks guys.

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 20:31
ergott
ergott's picture

You must use a 3 sided wrench from now on. Worth every penny.
_____________4

If someone on here did it, I'd probably like it. Since it was done by someone I don't know, they're a fucking idiot.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 07:20
bward1028

ew, really?

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 21:08
Tail Hook Lengthener
Tail Hook Lengthener's picture

I recently built a set of wheels with the DT Swiss Squorx nipples and now that's the only nipple I ever want to use again.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
when you look back at your life sometimes you see a set of hands on your keyboard and a set of paws, but sometimes there's only a set of paws and that's when Tarckbear was typing for you.

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 21:37
emor
emor's picture
(Reply to #5135)

Tail Hook Lengthener wrote:
jawn doe wrote:
Tail Hook Lengthener wrote:
Does anyone have any idea if/when Alex will be selling their rim-brake 650b Adventure 2?

aren’t you usually the one with that answer?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This has been on my “gotta ask Tarck” list for a while. Really would like this rim.

"my main life goal is to have a dirtbag camper van with a bunch of bikes on it, go camping every vacation forever" -- me

Tue, 01/16/2018 - 23:03
bobbythehawk
bobbythehawk's picture
(Reply to #5136)

fixed wrote:
i can't even back the nipple off, but i guess i could grab the nipple with a set of pliers and go at it that way?

i am glad to hear i won't have to detension the whole wheel

double team that shit, get a flathead going from the outside and whatever might make it turn on the inside. lube it up. You can do it, man!

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 01:58
ergott
ergott's picture

One old screwdriver with a slot in the middle to clear the spoke can help.

If someone on here did it, I'd probably like it. Since it was done by someone I don't know, they're a fucking idiot.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 07:21
fixed
fixed's picture

ooooooh that's genius!!! i will do that.
now i just need to go buy two nipples because also like an idiot, i bought exactly 28 spokes and exactly 28 nipples

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 08:49
Rusty Piton
Rusty Piton's picture
(Reply to #5139)

bward1028 wrote:
ew, really?

3 sided like this:

Not 3 sided like this:

emor wrote:
Bicycle commuting is the worst way to get anywhere except for all the other ways.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 11:21
Tail Hook Lengthener
Tail Hook Lengthener's picture

Those DT Swiss tools are on my list of "gotta get soon". Building wheels with regular Park spoke wrenches is wrecking my hands and wrists.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
when you look back at your life sometimes you see a set of hands on your keyboard and a set of paws, but sometimes there's only a set of paws and that's when Tarckbear was typing for you.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 11:51
jdsmooth
jdsmooth's picture

re: 650b Adventure 2 chat
I asked Universal, cuz they have the other sizes + Surly Pack Rot.

Quote:
As of right now, it doesn’t look like it. I checked with all our distributors and nobody has a listing for that rim.
My guess is that Alex fill all the OE orders they’ll release it as an aftermarket rim. That’s pretty standard practice
for the bike industry. So I would give up hope just yet, but unfortunately I really don’t have anymore information
than my best guess. Feel free to keep checking back with us, if it becomes available, we will carry it.

Five-foot drops at speed on unstable terrain? Yep.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 12:07
Tail Hook Lengthener
Tail Hook Lengthener's picture

Someone who works at a computer all day doing bullshit should email Alex.

Sneaky Viking wrote:
when you look back at your life sometimes you see a set of hands on your keyboard and a set of paws, but sometimes there's only a set of paws and that's when Tarckbear was typing for you.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 12:17
Eric Estlund

Filed under "I was pretty sure when I ordered them it was a mistake"- the Park dial indicators are garbage. I knew they would be bad, but ugg. It takes so long for the needle to settle that they are pretty well throwaways. On the upside, the arms they mount to are fine, so I can add some better indicators.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 12:40
ergott
ergott's picture
(Reply to #5144)

Rusty Piton wrote:
bward1028 wrote:
ew, really?

3 sided like this:

Yeah I realized my mistake and edited after that comment.

If someone on here did it, I'd probably like it. Since it was done by someone I don't know, they're a fucking idiot.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 12:41
ergott
ergott's picture
(Reply to #5145)

Eric Estlund wrote:
Filed under "I was pretty sure when I ordered them it was a mistake"- the Park dial indicators are garbage. I knew they would be bad, but ugg. It takes so long for the needle to settle that they are pretty well throwaways. On the upside, the arms they mount to are fine, so I can add some better indicators.

That's what I did.

Mine are SPI which work well without being crazy expensive. You have to make sure you get roller tips. Mine don't really fit so I just fudged them in there. Not sure what dial indicators take roller tips natively, but replace standard tips immediately.

If someone on here did it, I'd probably like it. Since it was done by someone I don't know, they're a fucking idiot.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 12:44
Roundabout
Roundabout's picture

Or go four sided like a P&K Lie - plus some TAF colors.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 12:50
bward1028
(Reply to #5147)

Rusty Piton wrote:
bward1028 wrote:
ew, really?

3 sided like this:

Not 3 sided like this:

Oh thank god. I was thinking, "Isn't that guy a professional wheelbuilder?"

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 15:32
Endpoint
Endpoint's picture

Hex head and particularly double square head Sapim nipples changed my life. That and a sweet custom lacing jig + small light electric drill has cut my build time down and lessened the burden on my hands.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 20:26
bward1028
(Reply to #5149)

Roundabout wrote:
Or go four sided like a P&K Lie - plus some TAF colors.

Bought one of these and it scratched the shit out of my rims. Has bare metal touching right to the rim surface. I’ll sell it if someone wants a purple one.

Wed, 01/17/2018 - 20:52
motorbacon
motorbacon's picture
(Reply to #5150)

Endpoint wrote:
small light electric drill has cut my build time down and lessened the burden on my hands.

Build time cut down 5-8 minute per wheel and my hands don't hurt after a week of 4 or 5 wheelsets with this guy and a small electric drill. Not meant for tensioning, purely setting nipples at same depth and some initial tension. I actually grabbed a park nipple driver (square for Enve's) and modified it to function the same way as I had built 3 Enve wheelsets in one week.

Thu, 01/18/2018 - 02:36

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